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St. Louis MA recommend a genuinely good place to train Kung Fu

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    St. Louis MA recommend a genuinely good place to train Kung Fu

    This guy certainly gets around, and his original megathread is what led me to this site. Anyway..

    Can anyone experienced in the St. Louis MA scene recommend a genuinely good place to learn wing chun, or even more generally any form of kung fu? I know that BJJ/Judo is far more practical, but I'm personally interested in more than purely defensive standards.

    I can start a new thread if that's more appropriate, but I figured St. Louis area vets would already be involved in this thread.

    Thanks.

    #2
    Originally posted by BackFistMonkey View Post
    I am not in the area anymore and google is not bringing anything I find interesting to the surface. To be fair tho I have put like <10 minutes into the search so so don't give up. Do you have any places in mind?
    I can't actually see my first post, but I'm assuming this was in response to me. Sorry for the link formatting below. It seems that I can't post links yet.

    The only place I've really found was Shaolin Lohan Pai (shaolinlohanpai.com)

    It looks like Bullshido looked into his previous site/claims YEARS ago, and while they didn't completely say he was a fraud, they also didn't pull any punches on his claim of being the sole inheritor of his style. Some of his photos of he and his students were also picked apart pretty brutally. No one was impressed with anything but their level of physical fitness.

    I managed to find this video as well, which I am certainly no MA/Kung Fu master, but it looks like alot of... nothing? Especially for someone given the title of SiHing? Youtube ID= GVrdtik5FRk You can also google Shaolin Lohan Pai and the Youtube channel is the second link. It's one of the only two videos there.

    Even with my extremely limited knowledge of MA, from my acrobatics background alone I can tell his balance is questionable and his footing sloppy.

    But it really seems like if I want to learn any form of Kung Fu in St. Louis, this is my only option. The joys of living in the cultural wasteland of the midwest, I guess.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by BackFistMonkey View Post
      I will check them out online in a bit and let you know what I see.
      I appreciate it! I guess this is kind of turning into a more specific discussion about a different school, though, so if you want to moderate branch this discussion to its own thread, or want me to start my own, I can. Not sure exactly what the protocol on it is.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by apitch85 View Post
        I can't actually see my first post, but I'm assuming this was in response to me. Sorry for the link formatting below. It seems that I can't post links yet.

        The only place I've really found was Shaolin Lohan Pai (shaolinlohanpai.com)

        It looks like Bullshido looked into his previous site/claims YEARS ago, and while they didn't completely say he was a fraud, they also didn't pull any punches on his claim of being the sole inheritor of his style. Some of his photos of he and his students were also picked apart pretty brutally. No one was impressed with anything but their level of physical fitness.

        I managed to find this video as well, which I am certainly no MA/Kung Fu master, but it looks like alot of... nothing? Especially for someone given the title of SiHing? Youtube ID= GVrdtik5FRk You can also google Shaolin Lohan Pai and the Youtube channel is the second link. It's one of the only two videos there.

        Even with my extremely limited knowledge of MA, from my acrobatics background alone I can tell his balance is questionable and his footing sloppy.

        But it really seems like if I want to learn any form of Kung Fu in St. Louis, this is my only option. The joys of living in the cultural wasteland of the midwest, I guess.
        That place sets off so many warning bells to me. The veil of secrecy, the complete lack of reference to any comps or sparring, the "membership application" for more information, the lack of pricing and contract info, the lack of safety, training and exercise gear in the few photos I can reach out and pluck easily.

        I will send a PM to someone in hawaii and see they know anything since the other location is there.
        I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
        BILL HICKS,
        1961-1994

        "Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past."
        ---Jean-Paul Sartre

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by BackFistMonkey View Post
          That place sets off so many warning bells to me. The veil of secrecy, the complete lack of reference to any comps or sparring, the "membership application" for more information, the lack of pricing and contract info, the lack of safety, training and exercise gear in the few photos I can reach out and pluck easily.

          I will send a PM to someone in hawaii and see they know anything since the other location is there.
          Thanks, man! Take a look at that youtube vid as well if you have time. I don't know what to look for as I'm no martial artist, but maybe you'd get a better idea of the quality of instruction/form.

          From the bit of homework I was able to do (as you said, getting any concrete info is not easy), I'm fairly sure SiGung Vincent A. Cabais moved to Hawaii years ago, and the school in St. Louis is now being taught exclusively by his former students of senior ranking as a part-time gig.

          When I reached out to them, I got an email back (very quickly) respectfully thanking me for my interest and setting up an interview. I'm going to talk to one of the senior students/instructors today. From what I've read on bullshido, I know some of the things I should ask, but I'm open to other suggestions if anyone has them.

          edit: To their credit, the initial email setting up a meeting did not request any sort of payment, and it was framed entirely in the context of "Come and chat with us so you can ask us questions and see if you think this is the kind of program and style that is right for you." Very lowkey, not at all pushy, and didn't seem like they're trying to sell themselves or get me to swipe a credit card.
          Last edited by apitch85; 3/29/2017 11:34am, .

          Comment


            #6
            Don't sign anything.
            Ask about: insurance, prices, contracts, sparring, contact level in sparring, frequency of sparring, background of instructors, class scheduling, grappling, striking, takedowns. Preferably in that order.

            Look for: sparring gear (gloves, mouth piece, cups should be minimum), bags of gear belonging to students (what are they buying and carrying), punching bags and mitts, weights and equipment (CMA has a lot of grip training and weird contraptions at times), floor coverings and respect shown to surfaces, wall coverings, m/f and adult/child ratios.
            I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
            BILL HICKS,
            1961-1994

            "Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past."
            ---Jean-Paul Sartre

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by apitch85 View Post
              Thanks, man! Take a look at that youtube vid as well if you have time. I don't know what to look for as I'm no martial artist, but maybe you'd get a better idea of the quality of instruction/form.

              From the bit of homework I was able to do (as you said, getting any concrete info is not easy), I'm fairly sure SiGung Vincent A. Cabais moved to Hawaii years ago, and the school in St. Louis is now being taught exclusively by his former students of senior ranking as a part-time gig.

              When I reached out to them, I got an email back (very quickly) respectfully thanking me for my interest and setting up an interview. I'm going to talk to one of the senior students/instructors today. From what I've read on bullshido, I know some of the things I should ask, but I'm open to other suggestions if anyone has them.

              edit: To their credit, the initial email setting up a meeting did not request any sort of payment, and it was framed entirely in the context of "Come and chat with us so you can ask us questions and see if you think this is the kind of program and style that is right for you." Very lowkey, not at all pushy, and didn't seem like they're trying to sell themselves or get me to swipe a credit card.



              What are your goals?

              I've never heard of this school and was pretty involved in CMA here in Hawai'i for a while.
              It's located very close to one of the sister schools I used to train at (as are half a dozen other schools); but I do not recall them taking part in CNY celebrations or tournaments etc.
              If they've only become active in the past couple of years that would explain things.

              First impression is red flags galore.

              Comment


                #8
                A Joshua Kroeger is listed as the HI instructor, but his LinkedIn shows he left that position in Jan and is currently seeking work.

                https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-kroeger-7b366b79

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by apitch85 View Post
                  I can't actually see my first post, but I'm assuming this was in response to me. Sorry for the link formatting below. It seems that I can't post links yet.

                  The only place I've really found was Shaolin Lohan Pai (shaolinlohanpai.com)

                  It looks like Bullshido looked into his previous site/claims YEARS ago, and while they didn't completely say he was a fraud, they also didn't pull any punches on his claim of being the sole inheritor of his style. Some of his photos of he and his students were also picked apart pretty brutally. No one was impressed with anything but their level of physical fitness.

                  I managed to find this video as well, which I am certainly no MA/Kung Fu master, but it looks like alot of... nothing? Especially for someone given the title of SiHing? Youtube ID= GVrdtik5FRk You can also google Shaolin Lohan Pai and the Youtube channel is the second link. It's one of the only two videos there.

                  Even with my extremely limited knowledge of MA, from my acrobatics background alone I can tell his balance is questionable and his footing sloppy.

                  But it really seems like if I want to learn any form of Kung Fu in St. Louis, this is my only option. The joys of living in the cultural wasteland of the midwest, I guess.
                  I have no idea what good CMA would look like, but here are a few links.

                  http://www.shaolinwushucenter.com/
                  http://www.stlkungfu.com/
                  http://wcwingchun.com/
                  https://wuhsingchuan.com/

                  Take it for what it's worth. I'm going to stop typing and try to shield my peroneal nerve.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by ChenPengFi View Post
                    What are your goals?
                    I suppose my goals are threefold: learn traditional Kung Fu/Wing Chun, physical fitness, discipline. Like I said, I know that Wing Chun and Kung Fu are not as practical as BJJ, Judo, etc, but self defense is not the primary reason I want to learn martial arts. I lived in China for years, speak a fair amount of Mandarin, and just overall have a deeply vested interest in Chinese culture and history. With that comes admiration for the heritage and beauty of traditional Kung Fu, and my interest in learning it.

                    I'm finally in a place in my life where I have the time/income to dedicate myself to a MA, but my options in St. Louis seem very lacking.

                    Originally posted by ChenPengFi View Post
                    I've never heard of this school and was pretty involved in CMA here in Hawai'i for a while.
                    It's located very close to one of the sister schools I used to train at (as are half a dozen other schools); but I do not recall them taking part in CNY celebrations or tournaments etc.
                    If they've only become active in the past couple of years that would explain things.

                    First impression is red flags galore.
                    I kind of assumed as much after reading Bullshido for awhile and knowing some of what to look for. Thanks for doing some research.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by BackFistMonkey View Post
                      Yeah but those were "Master Ray's" alleged "students". Your video was just the 90's.
                      Wait... That wasn't a gag reel, like the BJJ Mannequin deal where the guy gets choked out by "accident". Can't find it just now, too many real ones out there cluttering up my google.
                      Don't rely on theory if your life is at stake.

                      "But now that you've anointed him as truthsayer, you'll be complicit with what happens when the next Jew comes here and is lambasted by an ultrasecular Rabbi" -W.Rabbit/Pship/Emily Dickinson/Earth Dragon/Self Proclaimed Editor Extraordinaire

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
                        Wait... That wasn't a gag reel, like the BJJ Mannequin deal where the guy gets choked out by "accident". Can't find it just now, too many real ones out there cluttering up my google.
                        No, that was NOT meant to be a joke. They are the product of F.I.T. Martial Arts, head instructor Master S.C. Ray.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by GrouchyOldMan View Post
                          I have no idea what good CMA would look like, but here are a few links.

                          http://www.shaolinwushucenter.com/
                          http://www.stlkungfu.com/
                          http://wcwingchun.com/
                          https://wuhsingchuan.com/

                          Take it for what it's worth. I'm going to stop typing and try to shield my peroneal nerve.
                          Thank you for those. I had found a few of them, but one is a new find for me. The only problem is I'm unsure exactly what to look for. I think I read on Bullshido at some point that the difficult thing about being new is that you don't know what you don't know when looking for a school.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by apitch85 View Post
                            Thank you for those. I had found a few of them, but one is a new find for me. The only problem is I'm unsure exactly what to look for. I think I read on Bullshido at some point that the difficult thing about being new is that you don't know what you don't know when looking for a school.
                            Unfortunately, that I can't help you with. There are plenty of others here who can, though, so I will leave them to speak to it.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              One more...

                              https://sites.google.com/site/stlouiskungfuarts/home

                              Comment

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