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Sport Vs Street BJJ

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    Sport Vs Street BJJ

    Before you break out the pitch forks please see my style field. I am in fact a BJJ devotee. What is killing me though is this "debate" that is erupting across my social media accounts claiming that Sport BJJ is inferior for self defense to "Street" BJJ, or Gracie Academy JJ.
    Here are the Gracie's on the subject


    Gonna admit, I'm a bit biased, but personally I tend to agree with Gustavo Gasperin


    In all seriousness though, when I used to lurk this forum ten or eleven years ago, I was seeing the same arguments from the TMA guys as to why BJJ/MMA wouldn't work in the str33ts as I'm seeing from certain camps of BJJ today. Has the BJJ market become so saturated that schools have to resort to old failed arguments of having the r3al d3adly that can't be used in sport?

    #2
    *shakes magic eight ball*
    "signs point to yes"
    It don't lie.

    Comment


      #3
      Is that your way of saying ignore the numpties on social media and obvious marketing ploys?

      Oh wait. Let me check my own magic 8 ball.

      *Signs point to yes*.
      Last edited by Michael Tzadok; 3/28/2017 7:06am, .

      Comment


        #4
        I was specifically talking about the lazy marketing... and in some places some of the markets are saturated... few but they exist. The self defense stuff isn't marketing to sport people. It is to grab the ninjers before they are ninjers.

        It's kinda lazy but honestly that demographic responds to that pitch. Sooo ... yeah it gets pitched and promoted and perceptions and awareness shift with exposure. Lies get passed on and the general consumer and product line suffers.

        Welcome to my world. Try explaining this to people... it is impossible.

        Comment


          #5
          Counterpoint...

          When I started training G/BJJ, we trained in Gi about half to 2/3 of the time, and even drilling or grappling in the Gi there was always discussion about protection of vital areas, dealing with strikes, and how to adapt if you were in a non-matted environment.
          And about half the time to 1/3 of the time we took the Gi off, which meant that we were grappling with hard slaps and simulated more destructive striking elements (simulated elbows, headbutts, knees etc).

          There might have been one or two Florida BJJ tournaments a year (I live in Florida), and it was plane ticket to Cali or Rio otherwise.
          The primary opportunities, especially within driving distance, for competing as a BJJ stylist were Judo, Shootfighting, and Vale Tudo (later with more restrictive rules called No Holds Barred, and now called MMA which has even more restrictive rules and rounds).
          After that first decade or so, Abu Dhabi made no Gi competition very popular, and NAGA and then later the IBJJF made Gi competition available everywhere,
          and people started really focusing on non-striking style competition with Gi or without Gi as their primary form of competition.

          Nowadays, I am halfway through my third decade of BJJ practice,
          And, I am now aware of many BJJ schools that do not regularly, if at all, practice strike defense while grappling, and that may be collectively rather unaware of it.
          ie, they pass with their head in kick range, they are not terribly familiar with the necessary adaption to surviving the bottom in every position while someone is trying to punch your face.

          There is an old saying, largely true:
          Punch a black belt in the face once correctly and he becomes a brown belt.
          Keep punching them in face correctly and you can punch them all the way down to white belt.

          And, I would add in all cases that one area that unfortunately needs regular drilling or even a sharp BJJ black belt will look awkward and poorly trained doing it,
          is clinch training and distance management while somebody with decent hands and/or decent feet and distance management is throwing their strikes at you.
          A double leg is a useful thing, except when done from too far away, except when you are tired, and except when your legs have taken on some rubber after absorbing some prior strikes to the head, the body, or the legs.
          After your ability to double leg has lost some steam in a fight, knowing how to clinch and do upper body standing grappling and takedowns becomes incredibly useful to one's survival.

          I would also add that in a true street situation, a headlock seems to be a very common situation.
          So, making sure to keep your headlock punch defense, counter-throws, and ground escapes regularly trained so you don't accidentally eat any more shots than you have to if someone throws a pre-emptive headlock on you, is probably a good idea for self-defense training.

          Now, one place where I have a problem with the argument one level up,
          is that I feel that modern self-defence training should, at least in the United States but probably everywhere,
          include the right dose of gun safety, gun handling, and basic marksmanship training.
          So the first thing I have any student with a self-defense interest do, is sign up for additional / supplementary training with a properly credentialed firearms trainer.
          And, I refer that out, because I do not hold myself out to the public to be a live ammunition firearms trainer,
          even though I do try to keep my own table ante skills in the area of gun safety and basic marksmanship on point.

          But self-defense is very broad, goes beyond hand to hand combat training, includes situational awareness training, IMO firearms training, and even includes discussions of making good choices, the possible value of a guard dog companion, and having an alarm system, good locks, good lighting, and some cameras on your property.
          Last edited by Dr. Gonzo; 3/28/2017 8:05am, .

          Comment


            #6
            This, right here^^^

            "Self defense vs. 'sport' " is a way to market to individuals who want to learn how to fight without having to actually work at becoming a good fighter. In all of the schools and styles I looked into, anything that is marketed as NOT having sport application tends downplay physical conditioning and focus on a pretty sterile presentation of technique. Basically, the implication is that by virtue of being combat oriented, knowledge of the techniques themselves will negate the need for any sort of real physical fitness.

            Comment


              #7
              Everyone has a plan till they get hit in the face or actually elected President.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
                In all seriousness though, when I used to lurk this forum ten or eleven years ago...
                Do you remember Aesopian?

                https://www.invertedgear.com/blogs/i...lian-jiu-jitsu

                Comment


                  #9
                  Yes and no.

                  On the one hand, the difference is exaggerated- sport Bjj works in self defence. On the other hand it doesn't work as well as it could do.

                  Assuming that there's some magical difference between the two, where one is a guaranteed self defence soloution and the other is a mere sport, is akin to the sort of marketing endemic of TMA. That said, assuming that there isn't value in training, in some capacity, for a specific situation is equally fallacious. It's the same argument found in TKD- "we wouldn't fight like we do in competition if attacked". No, you might not, at first, but how you fight is largely dictated by your training.

                  Not all arts are equally flawed. Bjj is certainly a better, more consistent fighting method than pure TKD, but the principle is similar. A Kyokushin practioner who focuses on knockdown could defend themselves and out strike the average person but few here would argue that the lack of head punches isn't a problem or that it wouldn't increase there chances of being caught by a wild haymaker. Bad habits are bad habits, they aren't necessarily guaranteed to result in failure, but they do have risks.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Aka-Tora View Post
                    Yes and no.
                    Not all arts are equally flawed. Bjj is certainly a better, more consistent fighting method than pure TKD, but the principle is similar. A Kyokushin practioner who focuses on knockdown could defend themselves and out strike the average person but few here would argue that the lack of head punches isn't a problem or that it wouldn't increase there chances of being caught by a wild haymaker. Bad habits are bad habits, they aren't necessarily guaranteed to result in failure, but they do have risks.
                    I would think that a habit being labeled as "bad" is largely situational, and would depend on your training goals. Take morote gari in Judo as an example. Ignoring the technique as a viable offense in randori would be a bad habit from a self defense standpoint. But I could see how drilling it regularly could be instilling a bad habit if your goal is Olympic level Judo.

                    One of the bad habits to carry over from wrestling to some other grappling styles is ignoring the possibility of being choked senseless. I learned this firsthand in my first few randori sessions. Several times, the instilled habits kicked in, and I was on the verge of putting my partner in a pin or locking them up, only to have my execution stopped short by my sparring partner choking the shit out of me. Conversely, chokes and strangles don't exist on a high school or collegiate wrestling mat, so I would imagine a BJJ or judo guy crossing over to wrestling could be equally hampered by the hesitation to execute an attack, because he could be looking to guard himself against being choked when the situation is not going to exist.

                    I realize my examples are all comp. vs. comp., but none the less, I think what defines a habit as bad is dictated by what you're ultimate priority is in training.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by GrouchyOldMan View Post
                      I would think that a habit being labeled as "bad" is largely situational, and would depend on your training goals. Take morote gari in Judo as an example. Ignoring the technique as a viable offense in randori would be a bad habit from a self defense standpoint. But I could see how drilling it regularly could be instilling a bad habit if your goal is Olympic level Judo.

                      One of the bad habits to carry over from wrestling to some other grappling styles is ignoring the possibility of being choked senseless. I learned this firsthand in my first few randori sessions. Several times, the instilled habits kicked in, and I was on the verge of putting my partner in a pin or locking them up, only to have my execution stopped short by my sparring partner choking the shit out of me. Conversely, chokes and strangles don't exist on a high school or collegiate wrestling mat, so I would imagine a BJJ or judo guy crossing over to wrestling could be equally hampered by the hesitation to execute an attack, because he could be looking to guard himself against being choked when the situation is not going to exist.

                      I realize my examples are all comp. vs. comp., but none the less, I think what defines a habit as bad is dictated by what you're ultimate priority is in training.
                      Absolutely. I'm talking in general for self defence. Personally I think that falling into "habits" to a large degree, when it comes to fighting- self defence or MMA- can be an issue. Habits have their uses but should be tempered. Specialising in certain things is good and having reactions is a useful tool but being able to take a step back and find creative ways of setting up what you have drilled ad naueseum is also useful. It's a balance between structure and a lack of structure. I have my tools/fall backs that I like but I can't afford to become robotic with them.

                      A balance between being reactionary and being cerebral. It's a balance no one can perfectly strike in my opinion.
                      Last edited by Aka-Tora; 3/28/2017 9:24am, .

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Aka-Tora View Post
                        Absolutely. I'm talking in general for self defence. Personally I think that falling into "habits" to a large degree, when it comes to fighting- self defence or MMA- can be an issue. Habits have their uses but should be tempered. Specialising in certain things is good and having reactions is a useful tool but being able to take a step back and find creative ways of setting up what you have drilled ad naueseum is also useful. It's a balance between structure and a lack of structure. I have my tools/fall backs that I like but I can't afford to become robotic with them.

                        A balance between being reactionary and being cerebral. It's a balance no one can perfectly strike in my opinion.
                        Like you, I don't think it is possible to strike a perfect balance. What you gain in one regard, will almost certainly cause another area to suffer. So, IMHO it all goes back to what your goals are as an individual, and accepting that if you want X, then you will have to sacrifice Y to get it.

                        I have found this to be true in many areas of life. When I am working an honest-to-god police patrol dog, that dog will see a fair amount of full-body bite suit work. With the exception of trying to train out one or two specific bite problems, a high level competition dog will rarely, if ever, see a full body bite suit. While working a full body suit will help a dog in more readily taking bites to something other than a nicely presented forearm, it also has a tendency to cause the dog to come in low on a long attack, because the dog has been taught that other possibilities will exist in that situation. Since judges like to see a dog fly into a long attack because they can easily view see the dog's commitment to engage, that is what we want to see a competition dog do. It doesn't necessarily mean a police dog isn't committed just because they may not leap into a bite. The same concept applies to engines. When I used to work on bikes in my younger days, and someone came into the shop saying they wanted performance mods, the first question I would ask is if they wanted their speed from 0-60 or from 60-top end, because you can't have both.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
                          Before you break out the pitch forks please see my style field. I am in fact a BJJ devotee. What is killing me though is this "debate" that is erupting across my social media accounts claiming that Sport BJJ is inferior for self defense to "Street" BJJ, or Gracie Academy JJ.
                          Here are the Gracie's on the subject


                          Gonna admit, I'm a bit biased, but personally I tend to agree with Gustavo Gasperin


                          In all seriousness though, when I used to lurk this forum ten or eleven years ago, I was seeing the same arguments from the TMA guys as to why BJJ/MMA wouldn't work in the str33ts as I'm seeing from certain camps of BJJ today. Has the BJJ market become so saturated that schools have to resort to old failed arguments of having the r3al d3adly that can't be used in sport?
                          It's a grey area. If spider guard is your best weapon you may not be ready for a high level mma fight.

                          There are a lot of schools that purple belts don't know how to block punches from guard,throw, set up takedowns with strikes, their mount isn't developed properly(especially in no gi schools), they never touch on weapons defenses, they never teach to control the distance before the fight has become physical, and a lot of things that all the baddest dudes of the past knew to make them bad asses.
                          These are things that should be covered.

                          On the flip side if you can hang with a blackbelt world champ you're going to fucking handle some dumbass that's picking a fight with you out at Starbucks. It would be even better if you learned the other stuff too.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I think people who don't train for the purpose of developing fighting skill but still believe they can fight as well as they could fight if they did train for that purpose are delusional.

                            Also, a couple things about the rant in that second video. First, you shouldn't have to be a black belt before you know how to fight. You should know how to fight by the time you're a blue belt. If you're not training specifically for that purpose from day one, that shit is not going to happen by blue belt.

                            Second, I personally know several sport jiu jitsu guys in the brown and black belt levels who I know for a fact have never been punched in the face, even in training. I think that is flat out fucking embarrassing.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              If you make it to black belt in bjj you're a fucking badass and your pretty set for self defense. I think the argument is what should the focus be for pudgy, kinda wussy blue belts? Because they are not set if they don't know the right techniques and they don't have enough experience to improvise. Should their brembolo be sick? Or perhaps their kick,clinch, takedown to mount /back mount?


                              Once you're a certified badass I think I can be easily forgotten how much you really know. These people with very little experience really should be working on the things that make everything else work. For me I don't think the argument should be sport versus Street so much as it is fundamentals first.

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