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    Originally posted by kimjonghng View Post
    I cannot contain my hype for the hatsumi video
    My loins are also moist in anticipation....

    Comment


      Originally posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
      You are pulling from the wrong places.

      Look to the high end racehorse veterinary literature.
      You salty dog, you. And here I thought I was being clever with the mouse placebo bit.

      You make me feel stupid sometimes, that's a real skill. Thanks. If only you could package it or give it away. It really only comes with time and effort.

      University Of Florida Veterinary School To Open Equine Acupuncture Clinic
      https://www.paulickreport.com/horse-...ming-to-ocala/

      It's hard to trust the bias of people like Steve Novella or Edzard Ernst, or people who get paid to write books about medical scams and consult television. It's not that they're not intelligence medicine men, it's more that they've been forced into compromising positions.

      They're forced to be permanent skeptics forever, otherwise when field research starts to suggest they're wrong, they'd have to go back and publish all their errata. It's almost as if publishing for profit before scientific consensus is actually obtained is a risky venture.

      Forcing acupuncture into Western research methods is probably up there with one of the most important medical advances of the late 20th/early 21st century. Unfortunately, a lot of people put undue weight into 1-2 academics who don't do field research themselves, but get paid to criticize it from afar.

      NIH is a good baseline. They do support acupuncture as therapeutic, with science-based medical research

      They do NOT support homeopathy, or any of the other scams Edzard Ernst has written numerous books about. In that sense, Edzard is definitely a valuable source of medical skepticism. On the other hand, he's probably the least objective source on CAM I can think of.

      Hyberbolic doubt and the scientific method are supposed to come together (Cartesianally) in the face of new evidence, not continue to dismiss new evidence because it contradicts (and thus would hurt) your book sales.
      Last edited by W. Rabbit; 10/08/2018 2:10pm, .

      Comment


        Originally posted by W. Rabbit View Post
        You salty dog, you. And here I thought I was being clever with the mouse placebo bit.

        You make me feel stupid sometimes, that's a real skill. Thanks. If only you could package it or give it away. It really only comes with time and effort.

        University Of Florida Veterinary School To Open Equine Acupuncture Clinic
        https://www.paulickreport.com/horse-...ming-to-ocala/

        It's hard to trust the bias of people like Steve Novella or Edzard Ernst, or people who get paid to write books about medical scams and consult television. It's not that they're not intelligence medicine men, it's more that they've been forced into compromising positions.

        They're forced to be permanent skeptics forever, otherwise when field research starts to suggest they're wrong, they'd have to go back and publish all their errata. It's almost as if publishing for profit before scientific consensus is actually obtained is a risky venture.

        Forcing acupuncture into Western research methods is probably up there with one of the most important medical advances of the late 20th/early 21st century. Unfortunately, a lot of people put undue weight into 1-2 academics who don't do field research themselves, but get paid to criticize it from afar.

        NIH is a good baseline. They do support acupuncture as therapeutic, with science-based medical research

        They do NOT support homeopathy, or any of the other scams Edzard Ernst has written numerous books about. In that sense, Edzard is definitely a valuable source of medical skepticism. On the other hand, he's probably the least objective source on CAM I can think of.

        Hyberbolic doubt and the scientific method are supposed to come together (Cartesianally) in the face of new evidence, not continue to dismiss new evidence because it contradicts (and thus would hurt) your book sales.
        I'm just an old fashioned practical whore who follows the money trails.

        People who own six figure or seven figure investment animals that participate in live intense competition for large cash purses use acupuncture for their investment animals quite a bit.

        And they are not screwing around in that business, the stakes are too high.

        As you noted, horses do not have the same placebo potential for humans, not that there could not be placebo, but...

        And there is large sample of academic peer review literature on the topic of veterinary medicine journal equine acupuncture to peruse.

        Comment


          Edzard Ernst is not even close to scientific consensus,


          He was just one of the authors. One of the other authors,
          Myeong Soo Lee, is a clinical researcher for the Institute of Oriental Medicine and an editorial board member in Complementary Therapies in Medicine.

          This wasn't just an isolated study. The article I linked was a review of 57 systematic reviews that had been conducted since 2000.

          There is a growing pile of American research studies on acupuncture,
          No, there isn't.

          So, the US government supports it as an effective treatment, too.
          And they're wrong.

          The NCCIH doesn't have a good track record, as far as I can tell. They once funded a study to test the long-distance effect of prayer on AIDS patients.

          Also: https://www.physics.gmu.edu/wp-conte...-Mythology.pdf
          Dan Severn loves raping people.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Holy Moment View Post

            He was just one of the authors. One of the other authors,
            Myeong Soo Lee, is a clinical researcher for the Institute of Oriental Medicine and an editorial board member in Complementary Therapies in Medicine.

            This wasn't just an isolated study. The article I linked was a review of 57 systematic reviews that had been conducted since 2000.
            Yes, and like all meta-studies, it's limited in the sense that it explores pre-existing research. The trouble with your source is that it's considered a scientific outlier.

            Some of the most recent scientific research completely contradicts that one, cherry picked meta-analysis.

            It's definitely not "scientific consensus", because for every study you post, even a meta study, there are clinical studies that continue in all realms of scientific academia, east and west.

            So, either you're wrong, or all of science-based medicine (except for Ezard Ernst Science-Based Medicine™.com) is headed in the wrong direction.

            Originally posted by Holy Moment View Post
            No, there isn't.
            You just haven't read them, or want to be bothered to. Once a skeptic finds Ezard Ernst or Steve Novella, they will cling to their (largely academic, non-empirical, and politically biased) conclusions.

            You are dealing with sources with significant investments in never, ever admitting acupuncture is not superstition or pseudoscience.

            The fact that acupuncture's effects on mice and horses is very much scientific in 2018 kind of blows your whole argument apart.

            OF course, so does the empirical experience of billions of people every year.

            Originally posted by Holy Moment View Post
            And they're wrong.
            Not according to science, just according to your knowledge of the research, which appears limited.

            You ignored the entire NIH library I gave you, for starters.

            Originally posted by Holy Moment View Post
            The NCCIH doesn't have a good track record, as far as I can tell. They once funded a study to test the long-distance effect of prayer on AIDS patients.

            Also: https://www.physics.gmu.edu/wp-conte...-Mythology.pdf
            That's a great study. Science is meant to divine the empirically real from the subjectively unproveable, and in this case, it's nice to know the NIH funded such a study.

            Unless of course, you feel science isn't meant to disprove mystical hypotheses?

            Science is the only thing standing between you, me, and theocratric slavery. In that sense, the NIH/NCCIH is doing good work.
            Last edited by W. Rabbit; 10/08/2018 4:03pm, .

            Comment


              Some of the most recent scientific research completely contradicts that one, cherry picked meta-analysis.
              No they don't.

              You are dealing with sources with significant investments in never, ever admitting acupuncture is not superstition or pseudoscience.
              A great deal more people have an even stronger monetary incentive to promote acupuncture as effective.

              The Chinese government, for example.

              OF course, so does the empirical experience of billions of people every year.

              Billions of people can be wrong.

              You ignored the entire NIH library I gave you, for starters.


              No, I didn't.

              In that sense, the NIH/NCCIH is doing good work.
              No, they're not: https://www.physics.gmu.edu/wp-conte...-Mythology.pdf
              Dan Severn loves raping people.

              Comment


                OK you're on the government conspiracy trend, I get it.

                You just reposted a critical review of NIH/NCCIH grants by two non-medical professionals.

                Either you haven't actually read any of the latest research, or you are playfully pretending it doesn't exist and/or the doctors behind it are actually pseudo-intellectuals.

                The trouble with your argument is Vickers et al., aren't in the business of writing books for the Amazon store like your boy Ernst is, and the authors of https://www.physics.gmu.edu/wp-conte...-Mythology.pdf aren't doctors or involved in clinical acupuncture research at all, and so that entire argument is non-sequitur when it comes to acupuncture, what we're discussing the validity of.

                Acupuncture for chronic pain
                https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4036643/
                [/quote]
                We conducted an individual patient data meta-analysis of acupuncture for chronic pain, restricted to high quality trials, with data available for 17,922 participants from 29 of 31 eligible trials
                ....
                Acupuncture is associated with improved pain outcomes compared to sham acupuncture and compared to no acupuncture control, with response rates of approximately 30%, 42.5% and 50% for no acupuncture, sham acupuncture and real acupuncture respectively[/quote]

                Science is not skeptical of acupuncture in 2018, with regards to clinical effect it is well beyond the point (unless you rely on old-outdated skeptical sources like you are).

                There are a lot of questions about mechanisms, sure, but if you're going to ignore the measureable effects in mice, horses, as well as people, why not just promote Flat Earth theory too.

                Comment


                  OK you're on the government conspiracy trend, I get it.
                  It's not a conspiracy.

                  The trouble with your argument is Vickers et al., aren't in the business of writing books for the Amazon store like your boy Ernst is
                  Why is he my boy?

                  Either you haven't actually read any of the latest research
                  There is none.

                  Science is not skeptical of acupuncture in 2018
                  Yes, it is.
                  Dan Severn loves raping people.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
                    I'm just an old fashioned practical whore who follows the money trails.

                    People who own six figure or seven figure investment animals that participate in live intense competition for large cash purses use acupuncture for their investment animals quite a bit.

                    And they are not screwing around in that business, the stakes are too high.

                    As you noted, horses do not have the same placebo potential for humans, not that there could not be placebo, but...

                    And there is large sample of academic peer review literature on the topic of veterinary medicine journal equine acupuncture to peruse.
                    Such a field, where huge sums of money are thrown around in an attempt to secure astronomical sums of money, would be susceptible to accepting false positives. Dropping a few hundred a month on a harmless but pointless procedure "just in case" or "everybody else does" could easily become commonplace. For example look at the nonsense that pro athletes at the highest levels spend time and money on.
                    "Systema, which means, 'the system'..."

                    Originally posted by strikistanian
                    DROP SEIONAGI MOTHERFUCKER! Except I don't know Judo, so it doesn't work, and he takes my back.
                    Originally posted by Devil
                    Why is it so goddamn hard to find a video of it? I've seen videos I'm pretty sure are alien spacecraft. But still no good Krav.
                    Originally posted by Plasma
                    At the point, I must act! You see my rashguard saids "Jiu Jitsu vs The World" and "The World" was standing in front me teaching Anti-Grappling in a school I help run.
                    Originally posted by SoulMechanic
                    Thank you, not dying really rewarding in more ways than I can express.

                    Comment




                      Penis?
                      Dan Severn loves raping people.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Holy Moment View Post


                        Penis?
                        Everybody take a drink.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Holy Moment View Post
                          Why is he my boy?
                          You fell on his sword. You're not the first.

                          Originally posted by Holy Moment View Post
                          There is none.
                          Then you're going to have trouble explaining these:

                          Publication Trends in Acupuncture Research: A 20-Year Bibliometric Analysis Based on PubMed (2016)

                          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5156436/

                          Conclusion

                          Acupuncture research has grown markedly in the past two decades, with a 2-fold higher growth rate than biomedical research overall. Both the increase in the proportion of RCTs as well as the impact factor of journals published in support that the quality of published research has also improved. While pain was a consistent dominant research focus, other topics gained more attention during this time period. These findings provide a context for analyzing strengths and gaps in the current state of acupuncture research, and for informing a comprehensive strategy for further advancing the field.
                          Acupuncture for the prevention of tension-type headache (2016)
                          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4955729/

                          AUTHORS’ CONCLUSIONS
                          Implications for practice

                          The available results suggest that acupuncture may be considered for treating frequent episodic or chronic tension-type headaches.

                          Implications for research

                          There is clearly a need for large, high quality trials comparing acupuncture to other effective (pharmacological and nonpharmacological) treatments for frequent or chronic tension-type headache. Further trials investigating the long-term effects of adding acupuncture to routine care or treating acute headaches only are also desirable as both available trials originate from Germany and have short observation periods. We do not consider sham-controlled trials a priority for the future. The cumulative evidence suggests that acupuncture is effective in various chronic pain conditions, that correct point selection plays a role, but a less important role than acupuncturists have thought, and that a relevant part of the clinical benefit might be due to needling effects not dependent on the selection of traditional points or powerful placebo effects, or both. If researchers decide to perform a sham-controlled trial, they should seriously consider including a third group receiving another treatment or no treatment beyond treatment of acute headaches. Furthermore, they should be aware that the way the treatment is delivered might have an important impact on outcomes (Kaptchuk 2008), and that large sample sizes might be needed to identify any small point-specific effects.
                          Acupuncture for the prevention of episodic migraine (2017)
                          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4977344/

                          AUTHORS’ CONCLUSIONS
                          Implications for practice

                          Acupuncture seems to be effective for migraine prophylaxis. The effects over sham acupuncture found in this review were small, but there were clinically relevant effects over no acupuncture/no prophylactic treatment, and acupuncture compared well with prophylactic drugs regarding effectiveness and side effects. As the findings of our main analysis on headache frequency use standardized mean differences as an effect measure they are somewhat difficult to interpret clinically. In terms of number of migraine days, our findings approximately indicate the following: assuming a frequency of six migraine days per month at baseline, this would be reduced to five days in the no-treatment control group, to four in the sham group and the prophylactic drug group, and to three and a half in the acupuncture group. Acupuncture can be considered as a treatment option for people with migraine needing prophylactic treatment because of frequent or inadequately controlled migraine attacks, particularly people refusing prophylactic drug treatment or experiencing adverse effects from such treatment.
                          Implications for research

                          As migraine is a chronic condition, it would be important for clinicians to know how long improvements associated with acupuncture treatment last, whether continued intermittent treatment sustains the effect, and whether a further treatment cycle again leads to improvement. These latter questions might be best investigated in cohort studies. In principle, it seems important to know which types of acupuncture work best, what is the optimal frequency and duration of sessions, and so on. Some studies have not shown important differences in the effects of different acupuncture techniques (Jena 2008; Weidenhammer 2006), but this review found an influence of number of treatment sessions, in line with other evidence on dose (number of needles, number of sessions) of treatment (MacPherson 2013); these issues could also be investigated in observational studies. For decision-makers it would be important to know who is sufficiently qualified to deliver acupuncture. Randomized trials comparing outcomes after treatment by different types of practitioner are desirable, although very large sample sizes would be needed. Such studies would also be interesting from a more scientific perspective because it is unclear to what extent the effects of acupuncture are mainly mediated by context variables and generalized (i.e. not specific to traditional points) needling effects, and what contribution correct point location makes. Although further sham-controlled trials are desirable, we think that such studies should not have the highest priority unless they also address other important questions. Further comparisons with prophylactic drug treatment and other non-pharmacological interventions are needed. To facilitate future meta-analyses, it would be helpful if some standards for reporting outcome data were established.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by ermghoti View Post
                            Such a field, where huge sums of money are thrown around in an attempt to secure astronomical sums of money, would be susceptible to accepting false positives. Dropping a few hundred a month on a harmless but pointless procedure "just in case" or "everybody else does" could easily become commonplace. For example look at the nonsense that pro athletes at the highest levels spend time and money on.
                            Excellent point.

                            But, might I suggest that you read the veterinary medicine journal articles on the topic, if you have not already so.

                            Unless, of course, it is not worth your time.

                            Surprisingly, there may be something to it.

                            The dilemma is, there is of course a lot of woo, and placebo, and did I mention woo, practiced commonly in acupuncture and other forms of traditional eastern and east meets west medicine.

                            In fact, acupuncture salespeople often use the same show tricks we see martial arts woo-ers use.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
                              Excellent point.

                              But, might I suggest that you read the veterinary medicine journal articles on the topic, if you have not already so.

                              Unless, of course, it is not worth your time.

                              Surprisingly, there may be something to it.

                              The dilemma is, there is of course a lot of woo, and placebo, and did I mention woo, practiced commonly in acupuncture and other forms of traditional eastern and east meets west medicine.

                              In fact, acupuncture salespeople often use the same show tricks we see martial arts woo-ers use.
                              I wasn't making a statement for or against the practice, just warning that acceptance in a high stakes game isn't proof either way. I've heard of acupuncture being used successfully in veterinary medicine, and it's one of the stronger bits of supporting evidence IMO.
                              "Systema, which means, 'the system'..."

                              Originally posted by strikistanian
                              DROP SEIONAGI MOTHERFUCKER! Except I don't know Judo, so it doesn't work, and he takes my back.
                              Originally posted by Devil
                              Why is it so goddamn hard to find a video of it? I've seen videos I'm pretty sure are alien spacecraft. But still no good Krav.
                              Originally posted by Plasma
                              At the point, I must act! You see my rashguard saids "Jiu Jitsu vs The World" and "The World" was standing in front me teaching Anti-Grappling in a school I help run.
                              Originally posted by SoulMechanic
                              Thank you, not dying really rewarding in more ways than I can express.

                              Comment


                                So whatever happened to Bobby Joe Blythe and Willie J. Dennis?
                                Dan Severn loves raping people.

                                Comment

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