comparative similarities between bujinkan and aikido?

[kimjonghng]

as an ex-boojer I sometimes find myself wondering about the art and if it is worth me discarding everything I know or dropping it entirely. I actually went to a Bujinkan school some time ago even after a few years off the style, what i found was.

1. Compliant training. There was a guy there who was a krav and boxer dude who did resist and shat on many of the more advanced students all the way through the class by showing their techniques weren't working.
2. Nothing too special to differ the grappling from judo except low resistance
3. No real pain compliance placed and no real fight finishers
4. Many of the class seemed out of shape and throwing themselves around a bit too much, like they werent used to getting hit or thrown hard.

Anyway, last night I found out there's an aikido place with a trial month on, and I figured 'sod it' and went to see what it was like. I saw what I expected from the posts Ive seen: gentle warm up, started with meditation (always nice, if nothing else). Lots of stepping and tenkan, projection, balance training. Sword work followed some grip work and pins. What got me interested here was that there was a lot of stuff I'd seen in my booj days with more detail on how it worked and how to make good pins. Some points from Judo crossed over with body mechanics and balance usage, which I thought was cool if nothing else. At the end of the class, there was a 'randori' session. This entailed the class getting into small groups and rushing one person, sometimes one at a time, sometimes in multitudes and in this case it was important to use strategy to throw people into each other. Seemed okay as an exercise. All in all some parts of it felt like it was reminiscent of the bujinkan in some ways, and I feel Im seeing some of the connection due to the jujitsu roots (and also in some ways, how some technical aspects cross over from Judo.

Anyway, I was wondering what the opinions were of aikido practitioners on if there was much in the way of translatability between the two? What I saw made me think there might well be some elements of Aikido that definitely overlap

[Kravbizarre]

Whats the projection and balance training involve? (Sorry got curious)

From what ive seen in bujinkan. Theres alot of stuff that has been picked from other arts. So if something has been picked, taught and taught well then you would only assume theres transferable training/techniques.

[kimjonghng]

Whats the projection and balance training involve? (Sorry got curious)

From what ive seen in bujinkan. Theres alot of stuff that has been picked from other arts. So if something has been picked, taught and taught well then you would only assume theres transferable training/techniques.

The balance part was mostly testing the stepping and tenkan under pressure, so being rushed by an attacker over and over to see if you can stay on balance while evading someone going for a straight punch instead of the usual over-head chop thing I see in every demo. Keeping going on that non-stop whilst still keeping footing and not hitting other students, so taking into account the environmental factors made it more challenging.

The projection stuff seemed to be about some underlying principle a scrub like me might not understand fully, but it seemed (to me) to be about weight distribution and keeping your force going in particular directions without being off balance yourself and using space to get the attacker to either rush you or try to step off in a direction, then pull/push them over their own balance point. It was described to me in a sort of 'intention and focus' sort of way so I may be way off on that from a literal physical analysis. Will keep doing some reading on aikido definitions on the matter since I didnt ask exactly what the words meaning was (Ive heard it thrown around with various definitions in TMA circles so I always try to double check) but it seemed basically the same principle Ive seen in judo of 'helping them fall over'

[BackFistMonkey]

Thread moved to the proper forum, this thread is not MABS material.

[ermghoti]

I'm picturing a Venn diagram of "fake Japanese martial art from the 60s that trains compliant," and "fake Japanese martial art from the 70s that trains compliant," with "for pussies" as the intersecting set.

[Aka-Tora]

I'm picturing a Venn diagram of "fake Japanese martial art from the 60s that trains compliant," and "fake Japanese martial art from the 70s that trains compliant," with "for pussies" as the intersecting set.

The only thing I imagine the Booj is effective at defending is ones virginity.

"Stay back vile temptress, for I am a Ninja!"

[ermghoti]

MY PENIS IS A POISONED CALTROP

[GrouchyOldMan]

Whats the projection and balance training involve? (Sorry got curious)

From what ive seen in bujinkan. Theres alot of stuff that has been picked from other arts. So if something has been picked, taught and taught well then you would only assume theres transferable training/techniques.

Lineage issues specific to the Bujinkan aside, it is possible for a specific technique to develop independently in multiple styles.

Seeing the same technique in two different styles doesn't automatically mean that it was "borrowed" from one or the other. It could simply mean that a guy in Korea, a guy in Japan, and a guy in China all figured out that the human arm is not constructed to bend a specific way, and trying to force someone's arm to bend said way will cause pain and injury.

If you see some version of Ippon Seio Nage in a non-japanese style, is it borrowed from Judo, which would have adopted it from traditional JJJ? It doesn't take a genius in unarmed combat to figure out that if you force your shoulder into someone's armpit, and bend at the waist while holding their arm, they will end up getting slammed to the ground.

[kimjonghng]

Lineage issues specific to the Bujinkan aside, it is possible for a specific technique to develop independently in multiple styles.

Seeing the same technique in two different styles doesn't automatically mean that it was "borrowed" from one or the other. It could simply mean that a guy in Korea, a guy in Japan, and a guy in China all figured out that the human arm is not constructed to bend a specific way, and trying to force someone's arm to bend said way will cause pain and injury.

If you see some version of Ippon Seio Nage in a non-japanese style, is it borrowed from Judo, which would have adopted it from traditional JJJ? It doesn't take a genius in unarmed combat to figure out that if you force your shoulder into someone's armpit, and bend at the waist while holding their arm, they will end up getting slammed to the ground.

To be fair given Bujinkan's lineage questions and how much of it is basically japanese jujitsu, and aikido being derived from a japanese jujitsu style, I can there being cross over. Which of the two is better, well that I would love to see argued in the only way Bullshido knows how

[Holy Moment]

5. LARPing. A large part of the appeal for both arts is that you get to dress up in funny costumes, use Japanese terminology, and pretend to be wise.

I might do a "What's Wrong with Ninjutsu?" video somewhere down the road.

[GrouchyOldMan]

Which of the two is better, well that I would love to see argued in the only way Bullshido knows how

This site does have its own unique charm in that regard.

More to the OP, and topic at hand, just because the sum total of a specific style has been demonstrated repeatedly to be complete crap, doesn't necessarily mean that there is absolutely nothing of value at all.

I can honestly say that I have personally ended fights using pressure points, hard karate strikes, and unorthodox tactics (think eye-gouging). Full disclosure-these were all isolated incidents, and I have not successfully used any of these methods, or even TRIED to apply any of these methods to a real fight, since before I graduated high school.

Most intellectually honest people will recognize pressure point fighting, as a system, to be a terribly flawed approach to combat. That being said, I can still vouch for the effectiveness of digging your thumbs directly behind the ears of someone and applying it as a hail Mary technique out of pure desperation, if you are a 60ish lb. 10-11 year old weakling, and you are being pinned down and smothered by someone who is literally twice your size (quite possibly more).

[GrouchyOldMan]

5. LARPing. A large part of the appeal for both arts is that you get to dress up in funny costumes, use Japanese terminology, and pretend to be wise.

I might do a "What's Wrong with Ninjutsu?" video somewhere down the road.

In defense of these students, most of them don't realize that they are LARPing. They are sold on the notion that what they are doing is "authentic training".

I tend to be less forgiving of obstinate denial of reality in this day and age, since we have the totality of human knowledge at our fingertips, via the internet.

When I got sucked into the Booj in the mid-90s, I was basically looking for what I now know to be koryu. In those days, there was very little in the way of resource material readily available to even explain that, much less show me that the Booj was most definitely NOT where it was to be found.

[Aka-Tora]

as an ex-boojer I sometimes find myself wondering about the art and if it is worth me discarding everything I know or dropping it entirely. I actually went to a Bujinkan school some time ago even after a few years off the style, what i found was.

1. Compliant training. There was a guy there who was a krav and boxer dude who did resist and shat on many of the more advanced students all the way through the class by showing their techniques weren't working.
2. Nothing too special to differ the grappling from judo except low resistance
3. No real pain compliance placed and no real fight finishers
4. Many of the class seemed out of shape and throwing themselves around a bit too much, like they werent used to getting hit or thrown hard.

Anyway, last night I found out there's an aikido place with a trial month on, and I figured 'sod it' and went to see what it was like. I saw what I expected from the posts Ive seen: gentle warm up, started with meditation (always nice, if nothing else). Lots of stepping and tenkan, projection, balance training. Sword work followed some grip work and pins. What got me interested here was that there was a lot of stuff I'd seen in my booj days with more detail on how it worked and how to make good pins. Some points from Judo crossed over with body mechanics and balance usage, which I thought was cool if nothing else. At the end of the class, there was a 'randori' session. This entailed the class getting into small groups and rushing one person, sometimes one at a time, sometimes in multitudes and in this case it was important to use strategy to throw people into each other. Seemed okay as an exercise. All in all some parts of it felt like it was reminiscent of the bujinkan in some ways, and I feel Im seeing some of the connection due to the jujitsu roots (and also in some ways, how some technical aspects cross over from Judo.

Anyway, I was wondering what the opinions were of aikido practitioners on if there was much in the way of translatability between the two? What I saw made me think there might well be some elements of Aikido that definitely overlap

Considering the majority of Aikido today and Bujinkan are both rooted in a modern interpretation of classical Jujutsu ryu there are bound to be similarities. The main difference is traditional Aikido stresses good body mechanics in the context of demonstration- regardless of if they can be applied literally in live grappling.

In Japan Aikido, Karate and other Budo are taken rather seriously in terms of correct execution of the syllabus. Therefore, in spite of its combat effectiveness or lack thereof, a lot of focus is put on both aesthetic and technical quality. Bujinkan however, tends to be universally poor ninja themed krotty with a fetish for imitating the pantomime that is classical Jujutsu. However, whilst one can appreciate the technical performance of a legitimate Koryu demonstration in the theatrical sense, Bujinkan tends to skimp on the details and be a let down not only in the fighting department, but the aforementioned technical context as well.

Therefore If you are interested in role play with a sense of skill then a Koryu is a better bet. Bujinkan is pretty poor in any department besides, perhaps, variety. This wouldn't be such an issue if the quality was up to a half decent standard consistently, but it isn't. This is without even delving into the lack of aliveness. Long story short, with Ninjutsu you end up kind of shitty in most departments without cross training.

At least solid, traditional Aikido can conceptually act as an expansion to a pre-existing Judo base.

[BJMills]

5. LARPing. A large part of the appeal for both arts is that you get to dress up in funny costumes, use Japanese terminology, and pretend to be wise.

I might do a "What's Wrong with Ninjutsu?" video somewhere down the road.

A 'What's wrong with ninjutsu,' video is too easy. Everything I've ever heard or seen about that art falls into the wrong category.

Do a 'what's right with ninjutsu,' video and I'll be genuinely impressed...

Because really, I don't think it's possible.

[ermghoti]

Do a 'what's right with ninjutsu,' video and I'll be genuinely impressed...

Because really, I don't think it's possible.