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    BJJ politics question

    There's a school near me that recently added a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu program by sponsoring the relocation of a 4th degree Black Belt instructor from Brazil to the United States. His lineage and skills are legit, but he's not in direct contact with any of the Gracie family. The school's advertising for this program all refers to it as "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu." The Black Belt has been known to call it "Gracie Jiu Jitsu" in person. He says all Brazilian Jiu Jitsu ultimately goes back to Helio Gracie, and his lineage traces (eventually) to Helio.

    Meanwhile, a nearby school is a full-time BJJ school owned by a Brown Belt who has regular contact with members of the Gracie family, including hosting Relson Gracie seminars several times a year. He's heard the other school instructor is using the term "Gracie Jiu Jitsu" and is upset by this.

    I know all the players in this game, and I'm trying to understand the politics. Is it appropriate for the Black Belt to be using the term "Gracie Jiu Jitsu" in this situation? Is the term "Gracie Jiu Jitsu" protected Intellectual Property owned by the Gracie family with rules about who can use it? I get that the full-time school is irked by the new program starting close-by, but I'm curious if there's teeth to the claim that the new program shouldn't be using the term.


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    #2
    I think this provides some context.

    http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1471487.html

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      #3
      Originally posted by Styygens View Post
      There's a school near me that recently added a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu program by sponsoring the relocation of a 4th degree Black Belt instructor from Brazil to the United States. His lineage and skills are legit, but he's not in direct contact with any of the Gracie family. The school's advertising for this program all refers to it as "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu." The Black Belt has been known to call it "Gracie Jiu Jitsu" in person. He says all Brazilian Jiu Jitsu ultimately goes back to Helio Gracie, and his lineage traces (eventually) to Helio.

      Meanwhile, a nearby school is a full-time BJJ school owned by a Brown Belt who has regular contact with members of the Gracie family, including hosting Relson Gracie seminars several times a year. He's heard the other school instructor is using the term "Gracie Jiu Jitsu" and is upset by this.

      I know all the players in this game, and I'm trying to understand the politics. Is it appropriate for the Black Belt to be using the term "Gracie Jiu Jitsu" in this situation? Is the term "Gracie Jiu Jitsu" protected Intellectual Property owned by the Gracie family with rules about who can use it? I get that the full-time school is irked by the new program starting close-by, but I'm curious if there's teeth to the claim that the new program shouldn't be using the term.


      Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
      Yeah. Especially since this guy probably has lineage that connects to the Gracie family not too long ago.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by ChenPengFi View Post
        I think this provides some context.

        http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1471487.html
        Ahhh, I thought I heard about a law suit involving the family and the name. I'll happily read through the decision.

        If there are other politics involved in this, I'd be interested in hearing them too.


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          #5
          And more recently:

          http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...127267553.html

          Comment


            #6
            Lawsuits and crime. Shut the fuck up, keep your mouth shut and don't ask too many questions. OR, read decoded, open your eyes and be any enemy to the "community".

            Comment


              #7
              The Gracies has spent a lot of time and effort to make sure that it is considered a different beast.
              They advertise in San Diego as "learning from the source".
              I do believe at some point they stopped recognizing BJJ Black Belts.
              I suppose its a bit wrong to call it GJJ without paying all the fees and the what not.
              Hell inside most places I have trained instructors simply call it jiu jitsu.
              Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
              –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by The Villain View Post
                Lawsuits and crime. Shut the fuck up, keep your mouth shut and don't ask too many questions. OR, read decoded, open your eyes and be any enemy to the "community".
                Here we go again...

                Comment


                  #9
                  I have a solution for BJJ politics

                  Ban all other techniques except suplex throws and chokes

                  Vote for me, make BJJ great again

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by ghost55 View Post
                    Here we go again...
                    What did you think my stance would be? I saw how they did me, I'm not gonna send someone else in without warning.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      There are several ways to view this issue:

                      1) There is the legal trademark issue in the United States, and that is one way to view the right to use of the term "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" when it used as as an exact trade mark.

                      2) Another way to look at the issue is whether or not the curriculum being presented is from any Gracie or with the permission of a Gracie, either directly or indirectly.
                      In this second case, there is Gracie Barra, Ralph Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, Rickson Gracie Jiu-Jitsu schools, which have their own specific trademarks.

                      3) Yet a third way to look at the matter of whether or not the Jiu-Jitsu being presented is descended from a Gracie, and this is a matter of lineage.
                      ie, the teacher was taught and awarded a black belt by someone that was taught and awarded a black belt by such and such Gracie, etc

                      4) A fourth way to look at the matter is one of curriculum.
                      For instance, Gracie Barra has it's own specific Gracie Barra Jiu-Jitsu curriculum that is a careful blend of both stand up self-defense moves for beginners and then a heavy concentration of sports competition specific grappling curriculum for intermediate and advanced players.

                      A second case within this fourth view would be the Helio Gracie curriculum, practiced and promoted heavily by Mestre Helio Gracie's children and grandchildren, and their students,
                      which has a carefully preserved core curriculum of stand up self-defense moves, ground drills for when people may be striking at you,
                      and specific ways they like the moves and curriculum taught.
                      This curriculum is also available online via the Gracie University,
                      and would enable one to "fit in" rather seamlessly between training at Gracie Academy CTC's, Pedro Sauer Affiliates, Royce Gracie Affiliates, Valente Brothers schools, as all of these networks and in fact many more are dedicated to preserving this Mestre Helio Gracie curriculum and philosophy of training.
                      The curriculum of all these schools are deliberately kept preserved, quite similar, and with similar goals in training.

                      All Jiu-Jitsu taught within Brazil by Brazilians is "Brazilian" Jiu-Jitsu,
                      just like all Jiu-Jitsu taught within the United States by Americans is "American" Jiu-Jitsu.
                      It gets tricky when someone from another country comes for an extended stay to teach...

                      Each teacher of Jiu-Jitsu has certain lineages.

                      Some Jiu-Jitsu teachers are very familiar with preparing fighters for MMA and Vale Tudo competition, others are not.

                      Some Jiu-Jitsu teachers are very familiar with preparing fighters for certain pure grappling rulesets such as point based grappling or submission only grappling, and some are not.

                      Some Jiu-Jitsu teachers are very familiar with teaching stand up self defense situations, and some are not.

                      Some Jiu-Jitsu teachers are very familiar with teaching live ground grappling, and some are not.

                      Some Jiu-Jitsu teachers are very familiar with teaching effective takedowns are some are not.

                      Some Jiu-Jitsu teachers are familiar with teaching certain submissions (heel hooks, or neck cranks or...) and some are not.

                      People make big generalizations of whether Jiu-Jitsu is "Brazilian" or "Japanese" style, but this is actually not really accurate, nor really descriptive.

                      We should these days be able to discuss specific lineages, and whether or not the school has a MMA, IBJJF, 10th Planet type, Gracie Self-Defense, or a specific type of Japanese Jiu-Jitsu (Daito-ryu, Nihon, Aikido) etc.

                      I went to Brazil several times throughout the nineties to train and compete in Gracie lineage schools and competitions,
                      and in Brazil at that time, they just called Jiu-Jitsu: "Jiu-Jitsu",
                      and the flavor found was entirely dependent on the teacher running the school.
                      It was quite possible to have a school advertised as Jiu-Jitsu that was very Japanese style and not Gracie affiliated,
                      because Brazil had and has one of the largest Japanese populations outside of Japan.
                      At the time, many more people in Brazil played Judo that Jiu-Jitsu anyway.
                      The explosion of Jiu-Jitsu both in Brazil and in the rest of the world occurred after the first UFCs.
                      Last edited by Dr. Gonzo; 7/10/2016 8:30am, .

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
                        Each teacher of Jiu-Jitsu has certain lineages.

                        Some Jiu-Jitsu teachers are very familiar with preparing fighters for MMA and Vale Tudo competition, others are not.

                        Some Jiu-Jitsu teachers are very familiar with preparing fighters for certain pure grappling rulesets such as point based grappling or submission only grappling, and some are not.

                        Some Jiu-Jitsu teachers are very familiar with teaching stand up self defense situations, and some are not.

                        Some Jiu-Jitsu teachers are very familiar with teaching live ground grappling, and some are not.

                        Some Jiu-Jitsu teachers are very familiar with teaching effective takedowns are some are not.

                        Some Jiu-Jitsu teachers are familiar with teaching certain submissions (heel hooks, or neck cranks or...) and some are not.
                        Yes and this is why people really need to go to more than one gym, to really see what style fits what they are looking for.
                        Of course its easy for me to say that when there are options abound.
                        Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
                        –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Styygens View Post
                          There's a school near me that recently added a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu program by sponsoring the relocation of a 4th degree Black Belt instructor from Brazil to the United States. His lineage and skills are legit, but he's not in direct contact with any of the Gracie family. The school's advertising for this program all refers to it as "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu." The Black Belt has been known to call it "Gracie Jiu Jitsu" in person. He says all Brazilian Jiu Jitsu ultimately goes back to Helio Gracie, and his lineage traces (eventually) to Helio.

                          Meanwhile, a nearby school is a full-time BJJ school owned by a Brown Belt who has regular contact with members of the Gracie family, including hosting Relson Gracie seminars several times a year. He's heard the other school instructor is using the term "Gracie Jiu Jitsu" and is upset by this.

                          I know all the players in this game, and I'm trying to understand the politics. Is it appropriate for the Black Belt to be using the term "Gracie Jiu Jitsu" in this situation? Is the term "Gracie Jiu Jitsu" protected Intellectual Property owned by the Gracie family with rules about who can use it? I get that the full-time school is irked by the new program starting close-by, but I'm curious if there's teeth to the claim that the new program shouldn't be using the term.


                          Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I'd just change my legal name to Gracie and tell them to get fucked.

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