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Do you think Kung Fu and other TMA ever "worked?"

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    #31
    Originally posted by goodlun View Post


    The difference between Okinawan Karate and Kokushin Karate is pretty stark, almost like the difference between Judo and Aikido stark.
    From a training methodology and testing perspective I would certainly agree with you. From a technique perspective, it honestly doesn't look that much different then several other Karate systems.

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      #32
      Originally posted by Raycetpfl View Post
      You ever notice everyone in K1/glory kickboxing fights in about the same way on a macro level?

      All good kickboxing looks about the same.
      Clinching becomes more prevalent when its allowed(muay thai)

      There are only so many ways to punch and kick.
      Agreed,

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        #33
        Originally posted by Bar Humbug View Post
        We don't, and I don't want to invite in a heavyweight boxer to knock out an old guy, pretty sure the Uni would have a bitch fit about that
        So, did you invite him to go compete in amateur boxing?

        Not trying to push, but how did you diffuse the situation? I've never been involved in a dojo raid on either side.

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          #34
          Originally posted by jwinch2 View Post
          From a training methodology and testing perspective I would certainly agree with you. From a technique perspective, it honestly doesn't look that much different then several other Karate systems.
          Well you see Kokushin tend to look a lot like K1(imagine that) where as these um Kata heavier systems tend to not so much.
          I think the best example you could come up with a more traditional Karate working would be Lyoto Machida so the stuff can work.
          Same thing can be said about TDK we have seen one or two decent enough guys in K1.
          However at the end of the day those guys are really the exception to the rule and I think it goes beyond just training the "TMA" arts in an alive manner.

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            #35
            Joe Rogan was pretty high level in TKD and then entered the Kickboxing world and was blown away with how shit TKD was. He talks about it in one of his padcasts.
            Last edited by BigJim520; 6/08/2016 10:30pm, .

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              #36
              So what do we mean when we talk about goju/shotokan/kyokushin techniques? do we mean the techniques that good fighters produced by these styles use or the techniques that set these styles apart from boxing/kickboxing/muay thai? Because there is an enormous difference.

              I really think that karate schools which produce good fighters do so in spite of, rather than partly due to,the things that make them karate. Good karate fighters strike with their guards up, rather than pulling their reverse hand back, they defend with covering, parrying, and evasion not age/soto/shuto/uchi uke. It's no secret that competitive and successful full-contact karateka spend little if any time doing kata and traditional kihon, in favor of focusing on the techniques and habits that they are actually going to use. You ever seen GSP try to demo a kata?

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xO_TJxoujXQ

              That is not a man who spends a lot of time on kata.

              And Machida's karate skills and strategies clearly stem from JKA competitive kumite, not shotokan kata.

              I spent my fair share of time trying to justify the time I spent learning traiditional karate techniques. Maybe it's a roundabout way of teaching you important things about fighting? maybe I just don't know the right applications? maybe these techniques somehow do work well bare knuckle? (hint: they aren't used in lethwei or BKB)

              Or maybe it has been just as easy to sell BS for the last 100 years as it is now.

              Notice that I didnt'say anything about kung fu, which is because I have no real experience with it. I suspect the same is true there but I'll withold judgment. I understand that enshin and ashihara styles of karate did away with traditional kata and replaced them with fighting movements. Those kata are probably not a waste of time, since they can improve your ability in actually applicable techiques. For all I know a number of kung fu styles consist of highly applicable movements too.

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                #37
                I see kata as nothing more than a memory tool; an easy way to remember lots of different techniques. The individual techniques have there own applications (or not, depending on the technique) but linked together in the kata, pretty much rubbish unless lots of people want to stand in a circle, reading a script before attacking you. I see Kung Fu forms as the same but with more flourish.
                Last edited by Cake of Doom; 6/09/2016 5:26am, . Reason: mention stuff to be on topic.

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                  #38
                  Originally posted by jwinch2 View Post
                  Again, that is my point. By that definition, if a TMA such as Okinawan Karate were to train at 100% on a regular basis, keeping the focus on reality instead of point fighting, kata competition, etc. there isn't any real reason why it couldn't be effective. If Oyama could draw from Goju and Shotokan to create and effective art by altering the manner in which it was trained and tested, why couldn't the practitioners of those arts do the same?
                  Yes, and if you taught tennis players to shoot machine guns, use radios, and rappel out of helicopters into the ocean at night, they'd be SeALs.

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                    #39
                    Originally posted by ermghoti View Post
                    Yes, and if you taught tennis players to shoot machine guns, use radios, and rappel out of helicopters into the ocean at night, they'd be SeALs.
                    No, they wouldn't. Kyokushin's root arts are Shotokan and Goju. Oyama studied some other things, but those were his primary systems. Not a good analogy.

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                      #40
                      Originally posted by Cake of Doom View Post
                      I see kata as nothing more than a memory tool; an easy way to remember lots of different techniques. The individual techniques have there own applications (or not, depending on the technique) but linked together in the kata, pretty much rubbish unless lots of people want to stand in a circle, reading a script before attacking you. I see Kung Fu forms as the same but with more flourish.
                      Kyokushin has almost double the number of kata as Goju, and I believe that Oyama even created a few others after drawing from Goju and Shotokan for the rest. I'm not saying that I necessarily like kata, but I think it is worth noting. Also, to your point, a friend of mine who is a Shorin Ryu practitioner (he also does BJJ) says the same thing. Kata are a way to remember the curriculum, not practicing to fight as some others in the TMA world think.

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                        #41

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                          #42
                          Originally posted by BigJim520 View Post
                          video removed
                          Brutal!

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                            #43
                            Originally posted by Cake of Doom View Post
                            I see kata as nothing more than a memory tool; an easy way to remember lots of different techniques. The individual techniques have there own applications (or not, depending on the technique) but linked together in the kata, pretty much rubbish unless lots of people want to stand in a circle, reading a script before attacking you. I see Kung Fu forms as the same but with more flourish.
                            I think this is the function it serves in ashihara and enshin karate, but in those two arts the techniques you use it to remember are worth remembering. I have no reason to believe this is true for most karate.

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                              #44
                              Originally posted by BigJim520 View Post
                              So, did you invite him to go compete in amateur boxing?

                              Not trying to push, but how did you diffuse the situation? I've never been involved in a dojo raid on either side.
                              I just let him talk himself out. Uni finished up last week so it was a tiny class (myself and 3 others), so I let him go on for a bit, then tried to put in context that he was stating a view from a karateka's perspective, whereas I was teaching it from a boxing perspective on striking.

                              Should be interesting cause we have a few more people in for Friday class to see if he sticks around to give pointers. He's also critiqued my heavy bag work when i've been working out solo.

                              To be fair to the guy, he is a switched on bjj purple belt, just think he's drunk a little too much of the kool aid when it comes to karate

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                                #45
                                Originally posted by DCS View Post
                                Brazilians are not white enough?
                                yeah, I done gone goofed with that sentence. What I suppose I was trying to get at is that we create a fictional, idealised other as the representative of a MA, both personified and spatially located that is different to ourselves.

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