Do you think Kung Fu and other TMA ever "worked?"

[leonard99]

I'm sure something like this has been asked before, but I thought I'd give it a go, since I've been thinking about it lately. Anyway was watching a UFC documentary the other night and they were talking about how things evolved, and it got me thinking about the general criticism of traditional Kung Fu and other traditional martial arts as not being effective in a real(read: as close to real as the UFC gets) fight situation and it got me wondering if those martial arts were actually effective 100's of years ago or whatever and then got watered down over time? I mean CMA for example has an extensive history. You've got the Shaolin Temple and a ton of different styles over a period of 100's of years, was it all bunk? Or did the lack of use lead the styles to slowly evolve into ineffectiveness?

[mrtnira]

As our world has become more industrial, a lot of traditional behaviors have become less effective. Most people drive instead of walk. Most people generally don't work in the field all day. As a result, the general level of overall fitness has declined. If someone who works in the field six days a week does Karate, you can expect that person's grip, or kick, or strike would be significantly more impressive than one from someone who sits in an office most of their days, even if that office worker has a regular workout schedule. This is one factor.

Another factor would be practicing traditional military skills (martial arts) in a pacified environment. If robbers and highway men stalked our travels, as was the case in much of Asia and much of the rest of the world for thousands of years, we might be more serious about skill and validating our skills. In a generally less violent world where police forces are now fairly well established, the same level of general violence is much reduced. There are exceptions, of course. My statement is a generalized one.

Periods of peace are another factor. Musashi wrote that in periods of peace there is a flourishing of hands. People need to make more of something to keep an audience. If three years of training would produce a trained up rank and file fighter in Japan's civil war (armies of men, not highly trained specialists), how many training halls or dojos would keep their doors open if they trained as if they were producing soldiers on a schedule? They have to extend the process to keep the thing going. There is a money flow.

Those are some factors. There are other things -- for example, most people are just average. If average people train in a martial art, or in tennis, or in basketball, you'll see average performances, not Olympians. History records the Olympians, or the exceptional, not the other millions of us. This recording of the exceptional gives the other millions of us a false impression of what we could be. Our physical and psychological nature will become self-limiting at some point. The four minute mile is a good example of this. Few can run one, and even those who can will not go that much faster because of the limitations of the human being. Most of us settle for jogging because that is where we are.

[Bar Humbug]

Or did the lack of use lead the styles to slowly evolve into ineffectiveness?

If Kung Fu masters are to be believed, you'd think that there were a billion fucking Shaolin temples in China till the white man/Japanese decided to rock up.

You know, I wrote a really long post trying to be nice about this, but this is fucking YMAS

Kung Fu sucks. It always Sucked. It will always Suck, cause 99.9% of the people who do it are fucking pussys who want to be badasses but don't have what it takes to walk into a Boxing or Muay Thai gym and admit to themselves that they are one of the masses, no better or worse than anyone else. Instead they live in a dream in which they can tiger claw eyes out and monkey fist a single punch and that will defeat an opponent. They like the delusion cause reality is cold and hard, and they lack the fortitude and conviction to actually engage in hard training.

note: The remaining 0.1% is Omega Supreme and his students. Please don't kill me

[goodlun]

Well lets be honest most "TMA" are actually not all that traditional nor old.
Kung Fu is a bit of a misnomer in it self as it doesn't actually refer to a style.

Do I think there are older styles that worked? Of fucking course where do you think we got the material for the stuff that does work today.
Humans have been engaging in fighting for sport and self defense since before we where even human.

Of course being tool using peoples the obvious answer here is weapon based fighting arts have always been what has really worked.

[Permalost]

I think kung fu worked against other kung fu fighters.

[jwinch2]

I suspect that if you want to see what Kung Fu looked like as a fighting system one should take a close look at Okinawan Karate systems that have documented roots from Kung Fu such as Goju Ryu or Uechi Ryu. Providing they are trained properly, I believe that both are capable of providing a solid defensive structure in the stand up game. Obviously, we know they are all too often not trained properly, but that is a separate discussion, and one that has been beat to death.

[Bar Humbug]

I suspect that if you want to see what Kung Fu looked like as a fighting system one should take a close look at Okinawan Karate systems that have documented roots from Kung Fu such as Goju Ryu or Uechi Ryu. Providing they are trained properly, I believe that both are capable of providing a solid defensive structure in the stand up game. Obviously, we know they are all too often not trained properly, but that is a separate discussion, and one that has been beat to death.

Jwinch2, I apologies for coming of like a dick, but I just had to deal with a Karate guy coming in and trying to hijack my Boxing lesson and asserting that a Karateka could out box a boxer, so I'm a little riled up.

We separate and place 'authentic' expressions of martial arts in other places, not only with TMA's (karate= Japan, Kung Fu= China, TKD= Korea), but in combat sports (MT= Thailand, BJJ= Brazil). By placing it on a pedestal, we ignore the information we have access to by creating a fictional ideal that can be only located in a foreign setting, and thus free of our observation and critique.

Domestically we see the standards they are promoting, the techniques they are utilising and teaching, and we (rightly) criticise them. When they are using effective techniques, they are done poorly, when they are fantasist techniques they still do them poorly. What evidence do we have to suggest that it is any different elsewhere? Cause asians/Brazilians/whatever are naturally more hard working than white people? We stereotype them with positive racial traits for some fucking reason, a hangover from the good old days of Orientalist thought, and ignore all the evidence in front of us.

At some point, we have to stop saying 'it's the students, not the system' cause it's the fucking system.

On a final note, 23 years after the beginning of the UFC, and decades on from the old school vale todo/NHB matches, were are these foreign master's who's abilities demonstrate the true capabilities of a system? They don't exist, they never existed, cause they taught crap and if they didn't know it they got the shit beat out of them when they tried, if they did know what they taught wouldn't hold up they stayed the fuck away and continued the scam.

Instead

[BigJim520]

On a final note, 23 years after the beginning of the UFC, and decades on from the old school vale todo/NHB matches, were are these foreign master's who's abilities demonstrate the true capabilities of a system?

Their systems are too deadly, and can't be refined to work in a "sport" environment.

[Bar Humbug]

Their systems are too deadly, and can't be refined to work in a "sport" environment.

Oh shit, you're right, I totally forgot.

[jwinch2]

Jwinch2, I apologies for coming of like a dick, but I just had to deal with a Karate guy coming in and trying to hijack my Boxing lesson and asserting that a Karateka could out box a boxer, so I'm a little riled up.

That is a dick move, and I don't blame you for being annoyed by it.

We separate and place 'authentic' expressions of martial arts in other places, not only with TMA's (karate= Japan, Kung Fu= China, TKD= Korea), but in combat sports (MT= Thailand, BJJ= Brazil). By placing it on a pedestal, we ignore the information we have access to by creating a fictional ideal that can be only located in a foreign setting, and thus free of our observation and critique.

Domestically we see the standards they are promoting, the techniques they are utilising and teaching, and we (rightly) criticise them. When they are using effective techniques, they are done poorly, when they are fantasist techniques they still do them poorly. What evidence do we have to suggest that it is any different elsewhere? Cause asians/Brazilians/whatever are naturally more hard working than white people? We stereotype them with positive racial traits for some fucking reason, a hangover from the good old days of Orientalist thought, and ignore all the evidence in front of us.

At some point, we have to stop saying 'it's the students, not the system' cause it's the fucking system.

On a final note, 23 years after the beginning of the UFC, and decades on from the old school vale todo/NHB matches, were are these foreign master's who's abilities demonstrate the true capabilities of a system? They don't exist, they never existed, cause they taught crap and if they didn't know it they got the shit beat out of them when they tried, if they did know what they taught wouldn't hold up they stayed the fuck away and continued the scam.

Instead

I understand where you are coming from and agree with much of it. However, I have to ask, would you say the same thing about Kyokushin? If the answer is no, and I suspect it is, then why not? Kyokushin's primary influences were Goju and Shotokan. Yes, Oyama did some CMA, Boxing, and Judo as well, but the other two are the primary influences from everything I have seen. What he did was alter the manner in which it was trained and tested.

[goodlun]

That is a dick move, and I don't blame you for being annoyed by it.



I understand where you are coming from and agree with much of it. However, I have to ask, would you say the same thing about Kyokushin? If the answer is no, and I suspect it is, then why not? Kyokushin's primary influences were Goju and Shotokan. Yes, Oyama did some CMA, Boxing, and Judo as well, but the other two are the primary influences from everything I have seen. What he did was alter the manner in which it was trained and tested.

The SYSTEM is an alive system. The System is taught with sparring in it. The System as a whole works.
The SYSTEM ensures some quality control through competition.
Knock Down Karate works, cause it works, not cause of the people that practice it(I mean they do contribute) BJJ works cause BJJ works, the way its taught the way its practiced the way quality control is maintained.
Same with Judo, Boxing, MT, et all

[BigJim520]

Jwinch2, I apologies for coming of like a dick, but I just had to deal with a Karate guy coming in and trying to hijack my Boxing lesson and asserting that a Karateka could out box a boxer, so I'm a little riled up.

I hope you have a quality boxer in his weight class so he can test his theory.

[Permalost]

"My karate is so good for boxing, I never even get punched in the face in karate class!"

[jwinch2]

The SYSTEM is an alive system. The System is taught with sparring in it. The System as a whole works.
The SYSTEM ensures some quality control through competition.
Knock Down Karate works, cause it works, not cause of the people that practice it(I mean they do contribute) BJJ works cause BJJ works, the way its taught the way its practiced the way quality control is maintained.
Same with Judo, Boxing, MT, et all

Again, I agree with all of that. However, I would stipulate that with proper focus on training methodology, which includes of course, heavy sparring, that there is no reason that arts such as those Oyama studied could not be effective as well. The implication that we are the first people to realize that heavy training and aliveness is important to martial arts training in the past few decades is a bit arrogant. I freely admit that things went way off the tracks, and am glad that the revolution has happened, but that simply does not make sense.

[goodlun]

Again, I agree with all of that. However, I would stipulate that with proper focus on training methodology, which includes of course, heavy sparring, that there is no reason that arts such as those Oyama studied could not be effective as well. The implication that we are the first people to realize that heavy training and aliveness is important to martial arts training in the past few decades is a bit arrogant. I freely admit that things went way off the tracks, and am glad that the revolution has happened, but that simply does not make sense.

Actually it has nothing to do with the past few decades, wrestling is as ancient as anything else.
Boxing pretty damn old too.

The Japanese arts where battle field arts but
The Meiji era kind of fucked that over.
Not to mention like all true martial arts where heavily reliant on weapons of war.
MAs in a vacuum become worthless.

Open hand martial arts that have endured the test of time have all had sports related to them.