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Judo vs. Wrestling against heavier, stronger strikers?

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    Judo vs. Wrestling against heavier, stronger strikers?

    Hello lads,

    I know a lot of you practice BJJ, but what style do you focus on to get a much bigger opponent to the ground - say, a heavy striker.

    Do you prefer wrestling or judo techniques for heavier, stronger opponents who want to remain on their feet?

    Marcelo Garcia ---> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tjRZwdGm-M

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEJfMkGxBVA

    http://www.ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_leonard_0802.htm

    Thoughts?

    #2
    I feel like this would be largely dependent on the context. Are you both wearing gis? street clothes? rashguards? Is it a matted floor or cement?

    Obviously if there are heavy clothes involved, there's something to be said for wrapping someone up in a clinch and taking them down from there. But outside of that, and in terms of actually countering strikes, wrestling is usually the way to go. If you time someone coming forward with strikes, that's a great time to take them down.

    Comment


      #3
      I'm no expert by any stretch, but I've done a little bit of Judo and I've rolled with some wrestlers in BJJ. From the guys I've met and worked with, I'd say that I'm more comfortable rolling with Judoka than Wrestlers. Wrestlers bring a very different type of pressure to the mat in my experience. YMMV.

      I've also done a lot less grappling than striking, although the last couple of years it's been my only real focus, but after doing more grappling with a background of Kung Fu and then Muay Thai I would say I think a Wrestler would also get me down faster than a Judoka of the same level. My takedown game is pretty weak, but I'm more comfortable grip fighting and dealing with clinching than having to sprawl. I think most Muay Thai students without any other grappling training would say the same as well.
      "Intelligence is nothing more than discussing things with others. Limitless wisdom comes of this." - 山本 常朝

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        #4
        Both will close the distance on a striker, but then wrestling for me at least because that's what I know. In BJJ I'll take what's there, but prefer more of the wrestling styled takedowns because of that.

        Comment


          #5
          Even a light jacket or a substantial shirt provide nice handles for jacket wrestling techniques from Judo and Sambo.
          Purist Judo operates at a slightly different distance than wrestling.
          Purist Judo and Greco Roman wrestling have a more upright stance that blends better into a stance that functions well in a striking environment.
          Freestyle/Folkstyle/Collegiate wrestling has some nice leg attacks that work very well against untrained people,
          And still work with a high percentage but with an equally large risk profile against trained opponents.
          Catch Wrestling has a great mix of wrestling takedowns, slams and submission setups from the stand up.
          There are also other styles of wrestling such as belt wrestling which are country specific but have some really nice techniques, often with high amplitude finishes.
          All Combat Sports provide techniques that allow players to better leverage their physical attributes.
          Size, speed, balance and comditioning do matter as much as technique in real life.
          ie, to use technique you generally need at least a minimum in the other areas relative to your opponent.
          Every advantage you have over an opponent changes the percentages of success to failure over the large numbers of trials versus that opponent.
          Technique is valuable because it is the last to leave you and it multiplies the effectiveness of your physical attributes.
          But no technique nor Combat Sport is a guarantee of success either.
          Last edited by Dr. Gonzo; 6/01/2016 5:26am, .

          Comment


            #6
            I am a better Judo-ka then a wrestler, so I probably use Judo. I assume most people would just default to their strongest skillset, not think through whether one is better than the other.

            Comment


              #7
              I pray that at some point gravity does the trick for me?
              Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
              –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by goodlun View Post
                I pray that at some point gravity does the trick for me?
                I know that's kind of tongue in cheek, however, as the difference in size and strength goes up, the margin of error for the smaller person gets smaller and smaller when grappling. So I get what you are writing...

                As a judoka, I'd be very cautious about locking up with a larger, heavier person who is swinging at me, especially if they appear to have some sort of skill at striking.

                I'm not sure what the context for the OP is, either. In a sport MMA match, well, there is a reason there are weight divisions...
                Falling for Judo since 1980

                "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

                "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

                "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

                Comment


                  #9
                  I do a lot of clinch Judo-esque trips & throws for several reasons.

                  1. I can strike in an up right position effectively into a clinch and may score some good shots on the way in that could really help with ending the fight.

                  2. I am tall. All things being equal shorter people have a better wrestling shot.

                  3. I feel like the clinch is trickier and you have the option to switch to a shot from there.

                  4. Once I am in clinch range striking can be effectively nullified. If they keep trying to strike while I am wrestling they are gonna get taken down more than likely.
                  Last edited by Raycetpfl; 6/01/2016 11:25am, .
                  The Caucasian always has stronger strength and when comes to grappling, Caucasians mostly win easily. I do know grappling and if I used it on Asians my size, it works. - Kung Fu dude that got waxed at OneFc try out.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Raycetpfl View Post
                    I do a lot of clinch Judo-esque trips & throws for several reasons.

                    1. I can strike in an up right position effectively into a clinch and may score some good shots on the way in that could really help with ending the fight.

                    2. I am tall. All things being equal shorter people have a better wrestling shot.

                    3. I feel like the clinch is trickier and you have the option to switch to a shot from there.

                    4. Once I am in clinch range striking can be effectively nullified. If they keep trying to strike while I am wrestling they are gonna get taken down more than likely.
                    So an upright posture retains more degrees of freedom is what you are saying?

                    Also, if you want to be on the vanguard of judo terminology, there are no "trips" in Judo, unless you count hanging your toe in a crack in the tatami,that is...

                    All the leg/foot techniques of throwing (Ashi Waza) are considered throws, either a reap (gari), hook/block (gake), or harai/barai (sweep) principles/methods.
                    Falling for Judo since 1980

                    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

                    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

                    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

                    Comment


                      #11
                      off topic question to BKR, Plasma, other judoka how have been at the game longer than me:
                      I was once told that Moreto Gari, Kata Garuma and other "wrestling" style takedowns were imported from wrestling(catch, folk, freestyle I suppose) explicitly to benefit smaller Judoka and because of there success against more "traditional' Kodokan upright Judo tactics. There any truth to this beyond the consensus gained through observations of current grappling events?

                      To the OP:
                      I would run. The bigger guy will most likely tire before I do. Then I deal with him.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Kata Garuma was allegedly added by Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo, after he participated in the French Wrestling games.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Bar Humbug View Post
                          off topic question to BKR, Plasma, other judoka how have been at the game longer than me:
                          I was once told that Moreto Gari, Kata Garuma and other "wrestling" style takedowns were imported from wrestling(catch, folk, freestyle I suppose) explicitly to benefit smaller Judoka and because of there success against more "traditional' Kodokan upright Judo tactics. There any truth to this beyond the consensus gained through observations of current grappling events?

                          To the OP:
                          I would run. The bigger guy will most likely tire before I do. Then I deal with him.
                          I know there were added to Judo later from Western Wrestling. If they added for that specific reason I don't know, but they are effective technique so not surprising Kano added them after his exposure to them.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Bar Humbug View Post
                            off topic question to BKR, Plasma, other judoka how have been at the game longer than me:
                            I was once told that Moreto Gari, Kata Garuma and other "wrestling" style takedowns were imported from wrestling(catch, folk, freestyle I suppose) explicitly to benefit smaller Judoka and because of there success against more "traditional' Kodokan upright Judo tactics. There any truth to this beyond the consensus gained through observations of current grappling events?

                            To the OP:
                            I would run. The bigger guy will most likely tire before I do. Then I deal with him.
                            I don't think so. There are Kata Guruma like techniques in older Japanese Ju Jutsu styles. I've not seen anything about the origin of the ankle and knee picks
                            (Kibisu Gaeshi and Kuchiki Daoshi) in Judo coming from western wrestling traditions. Morote Gari either ("double leg").

                            As a smaller guy, I'd dispute that ankle and knee picks are more useful against larger grappling opponents. Maybe in the sense that you can initiate an attack without tying up with a larger and probably stronger opponent, yeah, but when both people are equally trained, the surprise tends to go away.

                            Grappling with larger and stronger equally trained opponents is a tough row to hoe, regardless.
                            Falling for Judo since 1980

                            "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

                            "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

                            "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
                              Kata Garuma was allegedly added by Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo, after he participated in the French Wrestling games.
                              If you look around,you can find Kata Guruma like stuff in older ju jutsu ryuha.

                              However, if he added it after being exposed to western wrestling, I've got no heartburn with that.
                              Falling for Judo since 1980

                              "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

                              "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

                              "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

                              Comment

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