"Not the style" argument with TMA

[Jim Giant]

Had a conversation with a TMA which rustled me more than it should have, thought I'd share :D

He brought up the "It's not the style it's the practitioner" argument. Although he studies an art which most of us consider BS he seemed like an open minded kind of guy, he has 30 years of experiance in MA and values MMA and other combat sports rather than shitting on them like virtually everyone else who does his style so I left a comment.

I disagree to some extent. I hear "it's not the style, it's the person" ad nauseam, it's there in the comment section of basically any SvS themed video but it's a false dichotomy and an oversimplification.

Of course as a general rule the practitioner is a larger factor but that doesn't mean the style has zero importance.

Is no touch kung fu as valid as shotokan karate?

If the founder of your style of wing chun spent 5 years more developing the art would it be a better art or would it be exactly equal and they would have been wasting their time?

I think it's perfectly valid to say certain styles are objectively better though most of the time it's a case of being better for a given context.

Boxing is better on wet slippery ground than TKD
Kendo would be more useful on a battle field than boxing
Judo is better for MMA than Sumo

I don't think you need to be an expert to have an opinion of the merits of certain styles either (though it would certainly help). Even if you're not an expert in a particular style you can base your opinions on what happens when the experts do fight other styles.

+Jim Giant "Is no touch kung fu as valid as shotokan karate?" <---- answer: No but that's not a style problem that's a training method problem.

My point is too many people in martial arts (and I have been involved in it since 1979) try to pit style against style and it's just silly. I have seen people from all styles who SUCK and people from all styles who are awesome. Boxing better on wet slippery ground then TKD? no I disagree. If the TKD guy has great balance and can take a punch and uses leg kicks AND has experience on wet slippery ground... and is a better athlete, then what? Kendo better on a battlefield then boxing? Last I checked Kendo is not a battlefield system but a sport (with rules) just like boxing.

Don't need to be an expert to have an opinion? Of course you don't... but your opinion is about as worthless as the low level understanding you're expressing when voicing that opinion. Sure I can have an opinion about something but it doesn't mean I know what I'm talking about.

See again... this shows very low level thinking. But hey... agree to disagree and move on. Peace :)

Decided to take the high road and ignore his passive aggressive none argument at the end.

I'm a seeker of truth, I appreciate the fact you have far more experience than me but if I'm wrong I want to fully understand why. Then perhaps if somebody else expresses the same apparently ignorant opinion as me I can correct them.

"No but that's not a style problem that's a training method problem."

Maybe I'm using completely different terminology but I'm talking about the guys who think they can knock people down without touching them. This isn't a training method problem, this is due to a fundamental flaw in the art's philosophy.

"My point is too many people in martial arts (and I have been involved in it since 1979) try to pit style against style and it's just silly."

Does it not depend on how the styles are pitted against each other?
Sure a one off fight tells you virtually nothing but when you see the same arts coming out on top consistently in a given context doesn't that give you valuable information? Is it not beneficial to see where the strengths of various arts lay so you can try to figure out a way to nullify them?

"I have seen people from all styles who SUCK and people from all styles who are awesome."

I agree but that doesn't mean style has absolutely nothing to do with it. A great Aikidoka may lose to a good MMA fighter but had they spent the same effort on MMA they would win.

"If the TKD guy has great balance and can take a punch and uses leg kicks AND has experience on wet slippery ground... and is a better athlete, then what?"

Then you're intentionally straw-manning me. I already said the practitioner is a bigger factor. Pick 100 random boxers and 100 TKD guys and the boxers would win far more often.

"Last I checked Kendo is not a battlefield system but a sport (with rules) just like boxing. "

This doesn't change the fact that given equal time/effort training in their respective sports a kendoka would be more lethal with a sword than a boxer would.

Complete noobs I can understand but what goes through the heads of serious MAs who spout the "not the style" argument?
Can anyone guess what martial art he does?

[Broomie]

Is it... Karatefuchun?
Seriously though, I heard that from 2 different USSD guys but I would bet it in your case it wasn't
The "it's not the system it's the fighter" argument makes me laugh because it sounds like you're saying "my system doesn't create good fighters." Then why would I want to invest time and energy studying it.

[gregaquaman]

If it is not the style. Then training in any style is basically a waste of time and money.

[Guird]

Seems to me the guy just sees 'style' as a name, without associating any training methods with said style name. I mean ofc it doesn't matter what you call your training. If you do competitive fighting with punches, kicks, and throws, it doesn't matter whether you label what you do Hung Ga or SanDa, the training is the same. But let's not forget that almost everyone who calls their training SanDa does train competitive fighting with punches, kicks, and throws, while a substantial number of people who call their training Hung Ga just do forms and partner drills.

Basically, you and him agree that how you train is important, but you disagree on whether style has any bearing on how you train.

[DCS]

It is the style, the person and the training methods.

What I think is usually overlooked is the transferability between the different possible scenarios: sport, self defense, combat...

[ermghoti]

Universities don't matter, it's the student. If Einstein went to community college, and Jenny McCarthy went to Harvard, who is smarter?

Except Harvard would never accept McCarthy, and Einstein might never have gotten the base and contacts required to publish and popularize his work at community college.

Similarly, the boxing vs TKD example assumes the TKD guy is in much better shape, which is improbable, as boxing is generally much more physically rigorous than TKD. The example holds an outlier as representative; it's like no true Scottsman backwards.

[Jim Giant]

If it is not the style. Then training in any style is basically a waste of time and money.

Following his logic I could create a style where you have your hands behind your back and just do flying headbutts and cock slaps and as long as I do hard sparring, hit the gym etc it's just as viable as kickboxing + wrestling.

[Jim Giant]

Universities don't matter, it's the student. If Einstein went to community college, and Jenny McCarthy went to Harvard, who is smarter?

Except Harvard would never accept McCarthy, and Einstein might never have gotten the base and contacts required to publish and popularize his work at community college.

Similarly, the boxing vs TKD example assumes the TKD guy is in much better shape, which is improbable, as boxing is generally much more physically rigorous than TKD. The example holds an outlier as representative; it's like no true Scottsman backwards.

I don't think that quite works, he believes having a good dojo/instructor/training partners makes a difference.

If we use uni as an analogy it's like he believes a degree in queer musicology will give you as many career opertunities as law.

[Devil]

One of the hard truths about martial arts and fighting is that there are often techniques and strategies that are just flat out fucking wrong. There are right and wrong ways to do things when it comes to fighting. Then there are gray areas. For instance, there are a handful of proper ways to escape mount. Anything else you do under mount is wrong. That is black and white. Throwing spinning head kicks in a street fight is a good way to get your ass kicked. But if you're good at it and you land it clean, night night motherfucker. That's a gray area.

Some styles have more of the shit that is flat out wrong than others. Style matters. Significantly.

[plasma]

One of the hard truths about martial arts and fighting is that there are often techniques and strategies that are just flat out fucking wrong. There are right and wrong ways to do things when it comes to fighting. Then there are gray areas. For instance, there are a handful of proper ways to escape mount. Anything else you do under mount is wrong. That is black and white. Throwing spinning head kicks in a street fight is a good way to get your ass kicked. But if you're good at it and you land it clean, night night motherfucker. That's a gray area.

Some styles have more of the shit that is flat out wrong than others. Style matters. Significantly.

That's why I only Donkey Guard in Street fights.

[goodlun]

Awwww this old debate.
Its the same as
Strength vs Technique
Talent vs Hard work
Power vs Endurance
or what ever have you.

Where one cannot go to either end of the spectrum cause both break down quickly.

There is an intersection point for all of these things.
The intersection point here I think dramatically favors style.

[Permalost]

Seems to me the guy just sees 'style' as a name, without associating any training methods with said style name. I mean ofc it doesn't matter what you call your training. If you do competitive fighting with punches, kicks, and throws, it doesn't matter whether you label what you do Hung Ga or SanDa, the training is the same.

Yeah, just because I train with boxers in a boxing gym under boxing rules and only punching doesn't mean I'm not really doing capoeira!

[Permalost]

Similarly, the boxing vs TKD example assumes the TKD guy is in much better shape, which is improbable, as boxing is generally much more physically rigorous than TKD. The example holds an outlier as representative; it's like no true Scottsman backwards.

The TKD guy would totally dominate the boxer; with just one stepping side kick, he'd knock the boxer right out of his wheelchair.

[Broomie]

One of the hard truths about martial arts and fighting is that there are often techniques and strategies that are just flat out fucking wrong. There are right and wrong ways to do things when it comes to fighting. Then there are gray areas. For instance, there are a handful of proper ways to escape mount. Anything else you do under mount is wrong. That is black and white. Throwing spinning head kicks in a street fight is a good way to get your ass kicked. But if you're good at it and you land it clean, night night motherfucker. That's a gray area.

Some styles have more of the shit that is flat out wrong than others. Style matters. Significantly.

Devil's comment made me notice something. Grapplers in general seem to be much more pragmatic in their views about MA. Grappling arts have a rock- paper -scissors quality about them it's easy to demonstrate how some things work and don't work and why. BJJ has that positional hierarchy. I think that's awesome because you can just point to it and say, "no, its not good that he's on your back with his arm around your neck." But striking has so many variables I think it can be easier to get it wrong in your head, if youre not in a competitive fight gym. It's hard to argue that chokes don't work. But when you punch a dude in the face what happens? Sometimes they just get mad, sometimes they go down.

[goodlun]

But when you punch a dude in the face what happens? Sometimes they just get mad, sometimes they go down.

There does seem to be some finality to properly applied grappling techniques, with a choke that guy is going to go lights out if you hold it, and with a joint lock you are going to do damage.
Of course you can still get power bombed while say triangling someone or even arm baring someone.
I think it was yesterday where I watched a video of someone just hulking their way back up standing while someone was trying to arm bar them.