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    #31
    Originally posted by BJMills View Post
    I just don't see katate as a terrible way to start for kids.
    Fighting single-handed is a useful skill, for sure.

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      #32
      Originally posted by BJMills View Post
      I just don't see katate as a terrible way to start for kids.
      They might end up like that insufferable little shit Daniel-san.

      Comment


        #33
        A tiny bit of a sidetrack, but only sort of....

        As for the discussion about keeping your hands up. I'm not defending what these guys are doing with their hands. I don't have an opinion on it one way or the other. I'm assuming it works for them under this particular rule set.

        However, I don't like to think too rigidly about keeping the hands up. There's more than one way to skin a cat. I present to you as evidence, Mr. Roy Jones Jr. Now, it's easy to say, "Well, he can get away with that because he's a freak of nature." There's some truth to that but I don't think it's that simple. Roy Jones didn't just "get away" with keeping his hands down because of his speed. A lot of his speed was a result of having his hands low. Speed is the advantage of keeping your hands low.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnC8sRqyIb0

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          #34
          Originally posted by Devil View Post
          A tiny bit of a sidetrack, but only sort of....

          As for the discussion about keeping your hands up. I'm not defending what these guys are doing with their hands. I don't have an opinion on it one way or the other. I'm assuming it works for them under this particular rule set.

          However, I don't like to think too rigidly about keeping the hands up. There's more than one way to skin a cat. I present to you as evidence, Mr. Roy Jones Jr. Now, it's easy to say, "Well, he can get away with that because he's a freak of nature." There's some truth to that but I don't think it's that simple. Roy Jones didn't just "get away" with keeping his hands down because of his speed. A lot of his speed was a result of having his hands low. Speed is the advantage of keeping your hands low.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnC8sRqyIb0
          Anderson Silva also fought frequently with his hands down. Moving your upper body to evade blows is much easier with your hands down than when lifted at head height, as you have less mass to displace at the largest distance from the place where you are generating to displacing torque.

          However, we can see how that worked even for Silva when somebody pushed forward with a continuous punching assault of more than two punches.

          Much like in TKD, a lot of the point-fighting karateka are trusting not just their speed and mobility, but also the restrain of their opponents, and the high probability that a combination of multiple blows will be stopped past the evasion of the first couple with a clinch or a close-quarters scramble that will elicit a stop and restart from the referee.

          The tendency to keep hands low I think had some bearing in my accumulating a broken nose, a broken tooth and over a dozen stitches in my face in my first years of karate.

          Then I learned to use a high guard, and lo, have not needed stitches again in almost two decades.

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            #35
            Vitali Klitschko also kept his hands low evading and counter punching from his hips like a gun slinger

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              #36
              Originally posted by BJMills View Post
              And again, don't get me wrong, I'd say get them into boxing/kick boxing when they're ready, I just don't see katate as a terrible way to start for kids.
              I tend to agree. But I think judo would be even better. Kids learn to fall earlier, when it does not hurt that much as they are nearer the ground already. :)

              I have not become very popular here in my karate circles when I state that in my opinions, most karate is precisely a kiddie martial art. The whole punch/kick the air in lines, the structure of the classes, all seem to have been fashioned by Itosu as a way to teach the art to large groups in elementary and high schools. The most practiced technique is a punch to the chest, which is probably the safest place where you can punch the opponent. So it is my opinion that this was all intentional so as to minimize the risk of injury and make easier the instruction for large groups with minimal supervision, with the understanding that the serious students would move on to more productive practice later. The problem is that most people got stuck in that fundamental stage, never went higher, into more realistic paired drills, but instead went into formalized kata and even more formalized bunkai for "advanced" practice, and thus, never really progressed beyond the kiddie stages, focusing instead on becoming monomaniacal about the details and purity and precision of those basic techniques. Later, the commercial realities of the dojo as disguised day-care further cemented those tendencies.

              So while I agree with the need for strong fundamentals, to keep most karate stuck in tachi-kata and hardly move into aliveness means that we are still doing "kiddie play fighting".

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                #37
                Originally posted by Permalost View Post
                They might end up like that insufferable little shit Daniel-san.
                NO wonder Elizabeth Shue dumped him between movies.

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                  #38
                  Originally posted by Devil View Post
                  A tiny bit of a sidetrack, but only sort of....

                  As for the discussion about keeping your hands up. I'm not defending what these guys are doing with their hands. I don't have an opinion on it one way or the other. I'm assuming it works for them under this particular rule set.

                  However, I don't like to think too rigidly about keeping the hands up. There's more than one way to skin a cat. I present to you as evidence, Mr. Roy Jones Jr. Now, it's easy to say, "Well, he can get away with that because he's a freak of nature." There's some truth to that but I don't think it's that simple. Roy Jones didn't just "get away" with keeping his hands down because of his speed. A lot of his speed was a result of having his hands low. Speed is the advantage of keeping your hands low.

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnC8sRqyIb0
                  I've also noticed a phenomenon where point fighting types will adopt a high kickboxing style guard, but it does more harm then good when they default to dropping their hands before punching etc, or their elbows stick out in a way they wouldn't if they just kept a krotty guard.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by ksennin View Post
                    Anderson Silva also fought frequently with his hands down. Moving your upper body to evade blows is much easier with your hands down than when lifted at head height, as you have less mass to displace at the largest distance from the place where you are generating to displacing torque.

                    However, we can see how that worked even for Silva when somebody pushed forward with a continuous punching assault of more than two punches.

                    Much like in TKD, a lot of the point-fighting karateka are trusting not just their speed and mobility, but also the restrain of their opponents, and the high probability that a combination of multiple blows will be stopped past the evasion of the first couple with a clinch or a close-quarters scramble that will elicit a stop and restart from the referee.

                    The tendency to keep hands low I think had some bearing in my accumulating a broken nose, a broken tooth and over a dozen stitches in my face in my first years of karate.

                    Then I learned to use a high guard, and lo, have not needed stitches again in almost two decades.
                    MMA fighters lose eventually. I'm going to just go right on ahead and call Anderson Silva's fighting style a success. I know, it's bold of me.

                    I'm not suggesting that keeping your hands low is necessarily an indicator that you're a skilled striker. What I am saying is that when some of the best strikers in the world do it, it's because there are legitimate merits to doing it. It's not because they're lazy or stupid.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by PittsKuntaoer View Post
                      The Tournament was hosted by Robert Zang of Wexford, PA. He hosts a tourny every November for all TKD. The KF school I went to for a short period of time was Sifu Slaughters CMA.

                      Our KF school got invited to a TKD/TSD/Karate tourny. We were the only ones. I think it was some sort of experiment by the host to just let other see a different style. Thats all there is to it. What I mainly thing is they wanted to see what kung fu forms looked like compared to TKD forms. I don't do forms at all, so I could care less.

                      In regard to "killer KF strikes", we dont have those. I was never taught kill strikes. I dont believe that those really exist. And even if a teacher told me those strikes would kill a person, I wont accept that as a fact at all. I was talking about hook punches, backfist punches, open hand: ridge hand, knife hand, and all palm strikes that are taught to me. So the only legal strikes allowed were reverse punches and all kicking tech.
                      That is just ...fucking heart breaking. You should never participate in ANY physical activity that bans a good back fisting, hook, uppercut or leg kicks.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        I hear what BackFistMonkey is saying and I'd say get into another school, but considering having fun and learning techniques IS important and wtf, they are children..... and as my Professor in Pahoa Kenpo Karate (Kaju + EPAK) said to the kids one night during sparring, "If I taught you to fight, you'd kill each other! What I'm teaching is target practice to the body!" And the kids have fun and while they do some silly kicks and moves, they aren't afraid to go pretty hard and I did get nailed with a nice spinning back to the gut from a 12 yr old... So it was a fun safe place for youth, and after a year or two, they certainly had sparred enough to learn to face fear and probably kick some bully's ass. And if they stick with it they learn all the pull the guy into your knee, explode into their faces, and nasty dislocation break bones fuck 'em up stuff (that I just love!).
                        Last edited by patfromlogan; 4/12/2016 10:46pm, .
                        "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez

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                          #42
                          Originally posted by patfromlogan View Post
                          I hear what BackFistMonkey is saying and considering having fun and learning techniques IS important and wtf, they are children..... and as my Professor in Pahoa Kenpo Karate (Kaju + EPAK) said to the kids one night during sparring, "If I taught you to fight, you'd kill each other! What I'm teaching is target practice to the body!" And the kids have fun and while they do some silly kicks and moves, they aren't afraid to go pretty hard and I did get nailed with a nice spinning back to the gut from a 12 yr old... So it was a fun safe place for youth, and after a year or two, they certainly had sparred enough to learn to face fear and probably kick some bully's ass. And if they stick with it they learn all the pull the guy into your knee, explode into their faces, and nasty dislocation break bones fuck 'em up stuff (that I just love!).
                          Fixed that for you.

                          You actually caught exactly what I was trying to say. People should do what they enjoy as long as they are aware of what they are learning. I had a lot of fun sparring and competing in-house with the TKD ladies and gentlemen when I was into Hapkido.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Originally posted by Devil View Post
                            MMA fighters lose eventually. I'm going to just go right on ahead and call Anderson Silva's fighting style a success. I know, it's bold of me.

                            I'm not suggesting that keeping your hands low is necessarily an indicator that you're a skilled striker. What I am saying is that when some of the best strikers in the world do it, it's because there are legitimate merits to doing it. It's not because they're lazy or stupid.
                            Of course, a highly talented and skilled fighter like Silva could make it work. It does have its advantages. But it has many disadvantages particularly for the beginner or less skilled practitioner. That is why I said that EVEN Silva ended up paying for taking such risks. Still, I agree that skilled fighters can CHOOSE to use low guard because they are aware of the risk/gain and can make that decision from a position of knowledge. They risk being less protected in exchange for the increase in speed and mobility gained. I sometimes do it intentionally precisely to goad someone into going for the head punches.

                            But keeping your hands up is a safer, more conservative thing to do in a fight, and that is something that should be taught.

                            The problem is when the low hands is the only thing you are taught, as if it was the best thing to do, and it becomes a bad habit to shake.

                            The emphasis on point-fighting in most karate classes has led to almost all of its complete curriculum being now devoted to the point-fighting needs. Most people not just drop their hands, they even place them in resting position over their waist so they can travel a shorter distance for scoring a point. It creates a lot of very hard to shake bad habits. I keep dropping my guard all the time, not because I want to use the advantages of that position, which I cannot, having back injuries that limit my torso mobility, but because years and years of karate made such a habit of keeping the hands down and pulling the hand to the waist that when I am tired or dazed (as happens during a fight) I automatically fall back on those bad habits.

                            So sure, top level people can make it work. But basic training should emphasize the high-percentage material.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by ksennin View Post
                              Of course, a highly talented and skilled fighter like Silva could make it work. It does have its advantages. But it has many disadvantages particularly for the beginner or less skilled practitioner. That is why I said that EVEN Silva ended up paying for taking such risks. Still, I agree that skilled fighters can CHOOSE to use low guard because they are aware of the risk/gain and can make that decision from a position of knowledge. They risk being less protected in exchange for the increase in speed and mobility gained. I sometimes do it intentionally precisely to goad someone into going for the head punches.

                              But keeping your hands up is a safer, more conservative thing to do in a fight, and that is something that should be taught.

                              The problem is when the low hands is the only thing you are taught, as if it was the best thing to do, and it becomes a bad habit to shake.

                              The emphasis on point-fighting in most karate classes has led to almost all of its complete curriculum being now devoted to the point-fighting needs. Most people not just drop their hands, they even place them in resting position over their waist so they can travel a shorter distance for scoring a point. It creates a lot of very hard to shake bad habits. I keep dropping my guard all the time, not because I want to use the advantages of that position, which I cannot, having back injuries that limit my torso mobility, but because years and years of karate made such a habit of keeping the hands down and pulling the hand to the waist that when I am tired or dazed (as happens during a fight) I automatically fall back on those bad habits.

                              So sure, top level people can make it work. But basic training should emphasize the high-percentage material.
                              Lower level fighters can make it work too against other lower level fighters. There are advantages to keeping your hands low, regardless of your skill level. A low level fighter is always going to get his ass beaten by a high level fighter no matter where his hands are. There are obviously disadvantages to keeping your hands low too. Like I said, there's more than one way to skin a cat. But hands low shouldn't automatically be dismissed as poor fighting technique.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                I took some videos of some mixed style tkd-ish sparring at a tournament a few years ago:
                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtKe2wB4kgc

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-CLEpxjIRk

                                People came out of the woodwork to complain that "that's not real kung fu!" or "that's not real soo bahk do!". They were indignant that their system-wide occasional sparring yielded unexceptional sparring, and had to take personal offense at the guy who dared post such videos since their self esteem is directly tied to the notion that their martial art is the best.

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