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Someone explain sport TMA to me

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  • BJMills
    replied
    Originally posted by Permalost View Post
    I disagree that they learn to effectively cover.
    I meant cover distance.

    And again, don't get me wrong, I'd say get them into boxing/kick boxing when they're ready, I just don't see katate as a terrible way to start for kids.

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  • BJMills
    replied
    Originally posted by Azatdawn View Post
    I believe that the same is possible with light sparring that doesn't get interrupted as soon as someone scores a point.
    Actually I agree with this. It's just harder to find.

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  • Permalost
    replied
    Originally posted by BJMills View Post
    Honestly I kind of prefer point karate style sparring for kids. They learn how to effectively cover and control distance and, more importantly, they don't take any real head trauma which is about the worst thing you can do for a developing brain.
    I disagree that they learn to effectively cover.

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  • PittsKuntaoer
    replied
    Originally posted by BackFistMonkey View Post
    There is a lot here I don't understand... like why you would compete in a TKD tourney, why they let you and why the ref completely ignored the standard scoring.
    What "KF strikes" were illegal because I know for a fact most kung fu strikes if not all are indeed legal with the body as the target, unless you are talking about the instakill strikes like throbbing boner kidney exploder palm and the palm striking the nose bone into the brain.
    The Tournament was hosted by Robert Zang of Wexford, PA. He hosts a tourny every November for all TKD. The KF school I went to for a short period of time was Sifu Slaughters CMA. I asked about sparring nonstop to the teacher, and he told me he was going to start sparring at any moment within this school. After awhile of no sparring whatsoever, I told him he was pulling my leg about sparring and all he cared about was his stupid forms! Then I left.

    Our KF school got invited to a TKD/TSD/Karate tourny. We were the only ones. I think it was some sort of experiment by the host to just let other see a different style. Thats all there is to it. What I mainly thing is they wanted to see what kung fu forms looked like compared to TKD forms. I don't do forms at all, so I could care less.

    In regard to "killer KF strikes", we dont have those. I was never taught kill strikes. I dont believe that those really exist. And even if a teacher told me those strikes would kill a person, I wont accept that as a fact at all. I was talking about hook punches, backfist punches, open hand: ridge hand, knife hand, and all palm strikes that are taught to me. So the only legal strikes allowed were reverse punches and all kicking tech.

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  • Azatdawn
    replied
    Originally posted by BJMills View Post
    Honestly I kind of prefer point karate style sparring for kids. They learn how to effectively cover and control distance and, more importantly, they don't take any real head trauma which is about the worst thing you can do for a developing brain.
    I believe that the same is possible with light sparring that doesn't get interrupted as soon as someone scores a point.

    Leave a comment:


  • ksennin
    replied
    Originally posted by NeilG View Post
    The story I was told was that in the early days of Shotokan, it was practised in the same places as kendo and so the whole scoring system bled over from kendo to karate. Which would explain why it looks so familiar to me. I've always thought the karate idea of "one strike, one kill" was pretty stupid as that's clearly so rarely the case in empty-handed fighting. Maybe another case of bleed-over from kendo, where it distinctly is the case.
    That was always the impression I had. Funakoshi apparently disliked sparring competition being more of a scholar and all that, and there was actually a split in the ranks when a group began to practice sparring behind his back (including a son of Funakoshi). Masatoshi Nakayama was the Chief Instructor of the organization, and he came from kendo. It is likely that whatever input he had in formalizing a ruleset for competition came from his kendo background.

    Nakayama published a series of books, the Best Karate series, with two individual volumes devoted to kumite, and the introduction I read was mostly quotes from famous swordmanship books like Musashi's Book of Five Rings and another by Muneyoshi Yagyu whose title now escapes me. That I think is pretty telling.

    Shotokan was apparently the big dog in the pound during the rise of karate in Japan and the way they organized competition became the prevalent ruleset for the joint competitions.

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  • BJMills
    replied
    Honestly I kind of prefer point karate style sparring for kids. They learn how to effectively cover and control distance and, more importantly, they don't take any real head trauma which is about the worst thing you can do for a developing brain.

    I think it's worthwhile for kids that are into martial arts to start with karate and judo then move to boxing or Muay Thai and BJJ as they get a little older.

    Leave a comment:


  • NeilG
    replied
    Originally posted by TheMightyMcClaw View Post
    Regarding point karate:
    To put it as politely as possible, Sport karate is less a fist fight and more a fencing match being conducted without swords.
    The story I was told was that in the early days of Shotokan, it was practised in the same places as kendo and so the whole scoring system bled over from kendo to karate. Which would explain why it looks so familiar to me. I've always thought the karate idea of "one strike, one kill" was pretty stupid as that's clearly so rarely the case in empty-handed fighting. Maybe another case of bleed-over from kendo, where it distinctly is the case. But I don't think self-defence is any more the point of studying Shotokan than it is for kendo, so it's all good for me.

    Leave a comment:


  • BackFistMonkey
    replied
    Originally posted by PittsKuntaoer View Post
    was a TKD tourny 2yrs ago.

    MY only opponent was a yellow belt. I had a black in TKD, but switch to kung fu and was the only KF guy sparring. Since I was new to KF, they made me spar the light colored belts. All the KF strikes were banned. Only reverse punches and kicks were favored. Only moderate contact.

    I blocked a round kick with a double arm block. They awarded him the point. I kicked him with a round kick sending him hard to the mat, they awarded him a point. I hook punched him in the face, they gave him the point. After 3 points, my match was done! That was the final sparring tourny I was in. There was no point to even being there.
    There is a lot here I don't understand... like why you would compete in a TKD tourney, why they let you and why the ref completely ignored the standard scoring.
    What "KF strikes" were illegal because I know for a fact most kung fu strikes if not all are indeed legal with the body as the target, unless you are talking about the instakill strikes like throbbing boner kidney exploder palm and the palm striking the nose bone into the brain.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheMightyMcClaw
    replied
    Regarding point karate:
    To put it as politely as possible, Sport karate is less a fist fight and more a fencing match being conducted without swords. Because fighters are broken and reset after each exchange, the emphasis is on being able to quickly close in and deliver a clean strike. As such, you don't have continuous barrages of blows, and there is little incentive to keep a high guard. The middle-low hand position is in fact the ideal position for that context, as it keeps the arms more relaxed and ready to explode when you move in. Similarly, the bladed body position and and light, bouncy footwork are all designed to optimize the initial entry and closing of distance. This is much less an issue in sports where the exchange of blows is continuous.
    As to the lack of leg kicks, that is because leg kicks are illegal in karate.
    Additionally, since sport karate is semi-contact fighting, a fighter is disqualified if he KO's his opponent. As such, strikes are relatively light, further making it a sport that is all about speed and not at all about power.
    In TKD, the hands are kept low because there are no punches to the head. It is, notably, very much a kick-fight, and keeping your hands down does indeed make it easier to stay balanced while kicking. Similarly, the rules make it more conducive to evade and counter than try and block, so the arms are not used much for defense. TKD is full contact (that is, a KO is a win), fighters are generally kicking fairly hard at the high level. Even in Muay Thai and MMA, I find it far preferable to evade kicks rather than blocking them, as blocked kicks still fucking hurt.
    So yeah. The eccentricities you see in footwork and strategies are a direct result of the similarly eccentric rules. I personally found fighting in sport karate to be an extremely frustrating experience, but these habits are not wrong in the context of the sports in which they take place.

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  • BKR
    replied
    Originally posted by ksennin View Post
    Agayev there is a world champion.



    Sometimes they do not score the point if the elbow flares outs too much so it does not look straight enough, of if you grabbed the other guy for too long to pull him toward the strike, or if your timing was a bit off or if it is felt that you did not show the proper posture, or the proper spirit, or the blow was not controlled enough.

    You also fail to score if you throw and you grabbed for too long, or if there was too lengthy a time between the takedown and the strike, or if you threw over the hip and not over the leg, or if your sweep was more like a low kick that kicked the leg away, or if you did not keep proper posture. If you are thrown and you try to grab onto the guy throwing you that can get you penalized because they want to showcase clean throws without it becoming grappling.

    The teachers I know keep getting rulebook updates all the friggin' time and they need to keep going to seminars to be updated. I do not even know how the numerical scoring done these days is different from my times. It is waza-ari, yuko and ippon now, for 1-2-3 equivalence, I think, and knowing what to award what is each time more arcane.
    LOL, the "judoifcation of Karate rules..."

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  • PittsKuntaoer
    replied
    was a TKD tourny 2yrs ago.

    MY only opponent was a yellow belt. I had a black in TKD, but switch to kung fu and was the only KF guy sparring. Since I was new to KF, they made me spar the light colored belts. All the KF strikes were banned. Only reverse punches and kicks were favored. Only moderate contact.

    I blocked a round kick with a double arm block. They awarded him the point. I kicked him with a round kick sending him hard to the mat, they awarded him a point. I hook punched him in the face, they gave him the point. After 3 points, my match was done! That was the final sparring tourny I was in. There was no point to even being there.

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  • BigJim520
    replied
    ... and that's why I didn't stick with the Karate or whatever point fighting nonsense I trained in a few decades ago.

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  • ksennin
    replied
    Also, in a lot of later point fighting sparring, I would see people rush in and end chest to chest, with arms spread apart to show they were not illegally grabbing, shuffling around and away. You can imagine how hard it would be to teach basic grappling defense to people who train for such reactions.

    Now, it is a sport, and the emphasis is speed and mobility to deliver a single brisk, high-precision technique under safety considerations, and the training is highly athletic, so it does have its benefits, but as a basis for more realistic fighting, a lot of it is actually counter-productive.
    Last edited by ksennin; 4/09/2016 11:51am, .

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  • ksennin
    replied
    Originally posted by BigJim520 View Post
    That makes perfect sense. If your strike is actually effective you get penalized.
    [/sarcasm]
    In that last tournament I mentioned I punched a guy in the face three times and the referee penalized me and told me to wear contacts next time. It was his student I hit. He won the match. It was the guy I kicked in the head with the outside-in crescent kick. I had a video where you see everyone in the audience wince at the impact. Got no points of course.

    A lot of the points were achieved by people lunging in with a punch completely unprotected in a huuuuuge stretched out forward stance that puts the fencing fleche to shame. I would immediately sweep and strike, or strike at the same time from a strong stance so the guy fell to the floor or staggered backwards. One guy even fell back and rolled over his back from the clash. But they would get the point for having brushed my midsection a fraction of a second before I knocked them down. I honestly sometimes did not even try to block them because I never felt any danger from such wild lunges where the extended arm would be at the complete end of the range and there was no real power that could be delivered. So I had the complete wrong instincts for this kind of thing. I actually felt bad punching faces that would rush at me completely unprotected.

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