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Someone explain sport TMA to me

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    Someone explain sport TMA to me

    Since I've got my daughter taking Karate, and I was horrified at the sideways one-arm-down stance (being a super-awesome Moo-Ti fighter myself), I'm trying to learn a bit about the traditional martial arts.

    I understand there's no leg kicks or head punches, so that's why that stance is effective. So my two questions are:
    How are points awarded (lol, I have the same question about BJJ and I've got a year of training in that)?
    How are the rules different between Karate and TKD?

    This Karate fight doesn't seem too horrible other than the breaks in action on non-scoring techniques, and both guys have their hands down the entire time:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4lX...&nohtml5=False
    Not a single point was scored, and I don't understand why. Also there were a few low leg kicks (just taps really not like a hard roundhouse to the thigh). There's a sweep/takedown at about 4:20 that didn't score and a really nice takedown at 5:05 followed by a strike and confident Kiai that didn't score. Why not?

    Ok, now TKD.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ldi...&nohtml5=False
    Again, hand position is insane, these guys are worse than the Crotty dudes. I've had "keep your hands up" beat into me for like 3 years now I can't understand why that isn't a concern in this sport.
    This time there are points scored all over the place and I don't understand why when watching in real time. LOL, the ref misses the toe-tap to the back of the head at 3:10 so they stop the fight and go to instant replay to check and blue is awarded 3 points (taking a timeout for nearly 1:30). I guess clean side kicks to the chest protector score, but push kicks don't even if they knock you off balance and the ref has to momentarily stop the action (4:49).
    Beginning of the 2nd round, (about 7:00) blue scores 3 more points as he's falling on his back. I guess he touched red's hat again. Blue ends up with a bloody nose from a kick to the face, but red didn't score any points until they appealed and watched the replay. Around 9:30 Red scores 3 (kick to face) and 1 (body??) then the blue coach appeals and instant replay determines no contact, so the 4 (why not just 3?) points are taken back.
    Blue scores several more points in the third that I can barely understand why and skunks red by taking a 12 point lead.

    So the object is to touch your opponents head gear, what a silly game.

    #2
    TKD sparring is legit. It's not actually tag and you can be knocked out with head kicks, such as the roundhouse, or body blows, such as the back side kick. Not every player is hunting the KO, but it happens. The hands are down because of the range they fight at. When they're in kicking range, their head drops back and it becomes about who's kick is more accurate. They don't really need to block it so much as not be in the path. It's an interesting art. It's not really a match for muay thai, but there are worse skills to take in than footwork and kicking people in the head.

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      #3
      I had this exact question when I did kung fu. We used a typical kickboxing stance for san da, but I'd occasionally spar with people from other styles, including TKD guys. It started to make sense to me when I was invited to a dojang to do a TKD style sparring session. Well, when a round kick came at my body, my normal reaction is to keep my hand up but crunch my elbow down to take the shot on my elbow (stonewalling). After a few of these, I was called out for hurting people's feet with my elbow. Apparently letting someone smash their small foot bones into your elbow is considered bad form in TKD. So I guess you're supposed to dodge it or downward block it or some shit. Or, let it hit you since its a TKD foot slap against a chest protector so its not like its gonna hurt anyway.
      What I don't get is that you still need to protect your head, so stonewalling would seem to be a valid tactic in the very common scenario where a TKD stylist fakes a body kick to a head kick, or even does a body kick and then a head kick without putting the foot down, since there's a minimum of motion from tucking the elbow to covering the head. I dunno, maybe it was just a shitty dojang.
      Another possibility is that stonewalling is more difficult to judge in a point-based fighting system, because the strike still lands, possibly makes noise, and the defender didn't seem to do almost anything, so point for that guy.

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        #4
        Its not a down block, but you tighten the arm against the body and absorb the impact.

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          #5
          Originally posted by The Villain View Post
          TKD sparring is legit. It's not actually tag and you can be knocked out with head kicks, such as the roundhouse, or body blows, such as the back side kick.
          I know KOs happen as well as broken ribs, even with the chest protector. But I don't understand why they don't keep their hands up to protect the head. Joe Rogan has an enlightening view on going from high level TKD to Kickboxing.
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrH_Wfhk2kI
          Last edited by BigJim520; 4/08/2016 1:06pm, .

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            #6
            I did some TKD back in the early 90s, when I was running the judo club at Tulane University.

            We sparred with the pads chest protectors, and kept our hands up. Other than the limit of strikes, it was like kickboxing.

            The instructor was NOT a man I would want to have had to fight...he was so fast with his kicks I doubt most people could even see them coming.

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              #7
              Originally posted by BigJim520 View Post
              I know KOs happen as well as broken ribs, even with the chest protector. But I don't understand why they don't keep their hands up to protect the head. Joe Rogan has an enlightening view on going from TKD to Kickboxing.
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrH_Wfhk2kI
              Range and rules. They're throwing attacks as soon as they enter kicking range. If they use simultaneous attacks, neither party's head is anywhere near the striking zone. Plus, they cant punch to the face.
              Last edited by The Villain; 4/08/2016 1:33pm, .

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                #8
                I did TKD back in the 70's and 80's, competed a bit and saw how the ruleset evolved and the protective equipement grew so the style became acceptable for the Olympic Games. One could say TKD in the 70's and TKD today are two different arts.

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by The Villain View Post
                  Plus, they cant punch to the face.
                  Isn't this how Muay Thai evolved? Punches to the face were legal but the Thai fighters didn't typically do it because kicks scored better. Then westerners came in and started throwing punches and that changed the game.

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                    #10
                    TKD sucks.

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                      #11
                      The karate video says it's from the WKF, which I assume is this org, which represents shotokan, goju-ryu, shito-ryu and wado-ryu.

                      I don't know a lot about the others, but shotokan karate is typically scored in kendo style, meaning they are looking for high quality strikes and ignoring everything else. I can't speak to the exact criterion they use, but when I've watched shotokan matches live and the flags go up, my head is usually nodding even though I've never trained karate.

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by NeilG View Post
                        The karate video says it's from the WKF, which I assume is this org, which represents shotokan, goju-ryu, shito-ryu and wado-ryu.

                        I don't know a lot about the others, but shotokan karate is typically scored in kendo style, meaning they are looking for high quality strikes and ignoring everything else. I can't speak to the exact criterion they use, but when I've watched shotokan matches live and the flags go up, my head is usually nodding even though I've never trained karate.
                        It had been so long since I was in my country's national karate team and did point fighting, that the WKF was still called WUKO. There was a lot more hard contact back then.

                        As with Shotokan the rules always emphasized the scoring of high quality techniques, very clean, highly visible strikes with polished technique, done with a greatly obvious superior timing so that the other guy is often left half-starting to react. The last time I fought in one such event I had already been cross-training with several other arts and trying to learn grappling in sorta empirical fashion, so I used a very kickboxing like stance, with high guard, very aggressive and I got scored on ridiculously easy. Most of my strikes never earned a point, even when the guy fell backwards to the mat from the impact. I actually knocked out a guy's arm out of his shoulder with a punch from frustration that I was hitting the opponents continually and they got the points instead of me. I dropped that same guy twice with just body punches before the arm popping out and he was winning 5 to 0. I actually kicked a guy's face with a high mikazuki geri and never got a damn point. Then I fought the champion who had beaten everyone else in round robin style, and he came at me with a flashy jumping lunge, so I grabbed and threw him hard, and since I suck and fell along with him, I ended up arm-barring him. Everyone laughed and I was warned to quit trying to do judo. He was so scared after having been thrown that he kept running from me the rest of the fight and I somehow won with a head kick. That was when I realized not just that I sucked at the whole sport karate thing, but that to go and try to fight a different way within a very defined ruleset was unfair for the specialized athletes.

                        The favored techniques tend to shift with fashion of the time. Back in my day there was this emphasis on the reverse punch that you saw people getting the reverse punch points over people who kicked their faces. THere were very rooted, sorta static positions. Then people began to jump around to the point that it seems like just a bit removed from jumping jacks, but the mobility and speed increased a lot, and kicks began to be favored more in the scoring. These days competitors have kinda even forgotten how to do a side kick, but they do incredibly fast, high extension ura-mawashi outside horizontal hook kicks with the weight thrown completely in the other direction for maximum speed and minimal force, and that is what is scoring highly. It was practicing this in drills that I heard a teacher say that whoever made too much noise striking the pad with that kick would be punished with pushups since it was supposed to be a fast tap.

                        The drills and practice of point fighting are still good limited practice for speed and mobility, but it is very narrowly restricted.
                        Last edited by ksennin; 4/08/2016 10:37pm, .

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by BigJim520 View Post
                          This Karate fight doesn't seem too horrible other than the breaks in action on non-scoring techniques, and both guys have their hands down the entire time:
                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4lX...&nohtml5=False
                          Agayev there is a world champion.

                          Originally posted by BigJim520 View Post
                          Not a single point was scored, and I don't understand why. Also there were a few low leg kicks (just taps really not like a hard roundhouse to the thigh). There's a sweep/takedown at about 4:20 that didn't score and a really nice takedown at 5:05 followed by a strike and confident Kiai that didn't score. Why not?
                          Sometimes they do not score the point if the elbow flares outs too much so it does not look straight enough, of if you grabbed the other guy for too long to pull him toward the strike, or if your timing was a bit off or if it is felt that you did not show the proper posture, or the proper spirit, or the blow was not controlled enough.

                          You also fail to score if you throw and you grabbed for too long, or if there was too lengthy a time between the takedown and the strike, or if you threw over the hip and not over the leg, or if your sweep was more like a low kick that kicked the leg away, or if you did not keep proper posture. If you are thrown and you try to grab onto the guy throwing you that can get you penalized because they want to showcase clean throws without it becoming grappling.

                          The teachers I know keep getting rulebook updates all the friggin' time and they need to keep going to seminars to be updated. I do not even know how the numerical scoring done these days is different from my times. It is waza-ari, yuko and ippon now, for 1-2-3 equivalence, I think, and knowing what to award what is each time more arcane.
                          Last edited by ksennin; 4/08/2016 10:55pm, .

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                            #14
                            Also, you do have head punches in WKF rules, but it is supposed to be restricted. If you draw blood or leave a big red mark or knock someone out you get penalized or even disqualified.

                            It is on children categories that head punches are banned.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by ksennin View Post
                              Also, you do have head punches in WKF rules, but it is supposed to be restricted. If you draw blood or leave a big red mark or knock someone out you get penalized or even disqualified.
                              That makes perfect sense. If your strike is actually effective you get penalized.
                              [/sarcasm]

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