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Leaving Bullshido: Shorinji Kempo

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    Leaving Bullshido: Shorinji Kempo


    #2
    Thanks for your write up. Yes, this is a standard experience for people that go from a complaint art, that is basically organized LaRPing practice, to an actual fighting art. It sounds like you are around 18 years old. So you are still very young and have plenty of time to train in some good fighting systems. Just don't spread yourself too thin, 1 day of practice in each art is not enough time to learn it at the pace you'd like.

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      #3
      Hi, welcome to Bullshido.

      BTW, you wrote;

      I had basically no idea what it was like to get hit, as any sparring was with the objective to touch the opponent or pull the punch about an inch or two from the target for face strikes and was done at a very slow speed.
      But I have seen sparring sessions like threse ones





      And even if they're not trying to kill each other, at least there are some contact and speed. Maybe there is something wrong with the club you've been training at.
      Last edited by DCS; 2/08/2016 5:02am, .

      Comment


        #4
        Welcome. Like you i also left a larping place (december last year) due to doubt. Funnily enough i also train at an mma gym and do boxing, mt and bjj. I can relate about wanting to leave on good terms cos people were good. For me said i got a new job and it was more responsibility and longer hours so wouldnt be able to make class.

        You mentioned your at university and you went home to kempo. Do you study far away from home and stay at your uni when not on holidays/break? If so this is your excuse. If your sensei finds out about your mma gym through your dad and confronts/asks you about it just say some friends asked for you to come along with them and now you all train together.

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          #5
          Originally posted by WhiteBelt1234 View Post
          I intend to leave the martial art of Shorinji Kempo after nine years of practice and thought that I would post this in order to better inform prospective students and anyone else thinking of leaving, this post may also be helpful for students of other martials arts, from my impression aikido in particular. For those of you who don't know what it is in general it can be summed up as having karate like striking with aikido like throwing techniques and an accompanying philosophy again similar to that of aikido.
          I started Shorinji Kempo when I was nine years old, it was a martial art my father had done many years previously and I had been interested in trying it for quite some time. When I went along I was shown the basic kicks and punches some blocks and some grab defences, and for a number of years I enjoyed going along to the weekly classes. It was between thirteen and fifteen when I first started having serious nagging doubts about the efficacy of the art. I was feeling like it was far too complaint particularly when it came to the wrist lock throws and pins. It is odd to think that I used to think that the following video was actually quite a good demonstration, not truly realising the degree of compliance there was in the techniques (see youtube /watch?v=ruEXbc9yCXc note in particular 0:22, 0:38 and 0:51). Anyhow these doubts became cumulatively greater over the years, though not to the point where I had really considered quitting, I would often rationalise my own inability to perform certain techniques thinking if the Sensei can do them they must work. I recently started university where shorinji kempo was unavailable leaving me to start some new martial arts and this would spell the end of my belief in Shorinji Kempo.
          After seeing videos of the original UFC and the success of Royce Gracie in a contest with so few rules I became interested in BJJ, and MMA more generally (having previously seen BJJ as ineffective and only working due to the rules that exist in MMA), as a result of this I decided to join university clubs for BJJ, Judo, Western Boxing and Thai Boxing. For me the contrast could not have been clearer. The first lesson of these I had was in BJJ. I absolutely loved it from the start, even the warm up was better I genuinely felt like I was doing exercise, and when I came to sparring I could give 100% resistance and would still be submitted very quickly by people who really hadn’t been doing it that long ie about a year, and the when a submission got put on the level of pain was not comparable. When I’d had locks done before on me it hurt but it was bearable, whereas when someone submitted me I genuinely had no option but to tap. Judo was similarly enlightening and showed me the difference between being thrown and compliantly falling because your wrist has been twisted uncomfortably. In boxing I did okay against the other beginners but against someone with a year or more of experience I had no chance. Not to mention that previously I had basically no idea what it was like to get hit, as any sparring was with the objective to touch the opponent or pull the punch about an inch or two from the target for face strikes and was done at a very slow speed. I am confident that if I had been hit before that in a real fight I would have been stunned and then lost. Thai Boxing was similar though I did slightly better as my kicks were co-ordinated and I had a sense of distance.
          After the first term of university I returned home and went to some of the sessions again to give Shorinji Kempo one last chance. Naturally I found the experience disappointing. We didn’t even do no contact sparring. When we trained the techniques they were slow and I when I resisted the techniques my fellow practitioners couldn’t do them. If I resisted the Sensei’s technique it often didn’t work or the technique looked entirely impractical. It is because of this I feel that I must leave Shorinji Kempo.
          Based on my experience of martial arts at university I would advise anyone considering Shorinji Kempo to do MMA instead or if that is too brutal for them, to take up Judo and BJJ.
          In terms of actually leaving the club I am completely unsure as to how to leave. Everybody at the dojo is very friendly including the Sensei and I don’t want to leave with a bad impression, which will be especially hard as the club has very few regular members and if I permanently stopped attending the club might not continue. In addition my father is good friends with the instructor and still entirely believes that Shorinji Kempo is a highly effective art. Any advice on how to do so would be greatly appreciated.
          Meet with your old instructor.
          Thank him for everything he taught you over the years.
          Tell him you have a new group of friends that you have been spending time with, and they have invited you to train at their club.
          Thank him again.
          Give him a tasteful thank you card and a small inexpensive gift, like a small jar of artsinal honey, jam, or a nice bag of loose leaf.
          Go out classy.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
            Go out classy.
            there's something to be said for this sort of exit too:

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by WhiteBelt1234 View Post
              Any advice on how to do so would be greatly appreciated.
              Well it seems you will have to duel your former sensei.
              A Doji Yaburi is the only answer.

              A: Tell him he owes you back all of your club dues for the entire time you have studied under him for the active deception he engaged in by teaching a bogus style. If he gives you your cash you guys are square. if no? Dojo Yaburi!! shoot a double, go to mount and pound his face!

              or

              B: You know..... just move on with your life and try not to care too much about the feelings of someone who actively deceived you for years? This is a bit like leaving a cult and worrying about what the cult leader thinks.
              Last edited by Raycetpfl; 2/08/2016 9:33am, .

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
                Meet with your old instructor.
                Thank him for everything he taught you over the years.
                Tell him you have a new group of friends that you have been spending time with, and they have invited you to train at their club.
                Thank him again.
                Give him a tasteful thank you card and a small inexpensive gift, like a small jar of artsinal honey, jam, or a nice bag of loose leaf.
                Go out classy.
                I second this. It's solid advice in handling the situation with some maturity.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Raycetpfl View Post
                  try not to care too much about the feelings of someone who actively deceived you for years? This is a bit like leaving a cult and worrying about what the cult leader thinks.
                  The odd thing is that I'm confident it wasn't an active deception. I think often people react in a complaint way to the techniques because of the belt the practitioner holds and then that re-affirms the perception of effective technique. Although this is an extreme example I think it illustrates my point /watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I there would have been no reason for that 'master' to create the challenge unless he genuinley believed in his techniques and the reason he believes in them is because he has complaint students who affirms his belief in his own technique. In fact my instructor on several occasions asked particularly complaint students to give more resistance.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by DCS View Post
                    Hi, welcome to Bullshido.

                    BTW, you wrote;



                    But I have seen sparring sessions like threse ones



                    And even if they're not trying to kill each other, at least there are some contact and speed. Maybe there is something wrong with the club you've been training at.
                    I am aware that other clubs do spar like that however I've never done sparring like that at my club.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by plasma View Post
                      Thanks for your write up. Yes, this is a standard experience for people that go from a complaint art, that is basically organized LaRPing practice, to an actual fighting art. It sounds like you are around 18 years old. So you are still very young and have plenty of time to train in some good fighting systems. Just don't spread yourself too thin, 1 day of practice in each art is not enough time to learn it at the pace you'd like.
                      Thanks for the advice, I'm doing 4 hours of BJJ, 4 hours of Judo, 6 hours Muay Thai and 2 Hours boxing per week. Do you think that is sufficient? I don't really many opportunities to train over and above that.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by WhiteBelt1234 View Post
                        Thanks for the advice, I'm doing 4 hours of BJJ, 4 hours of Judo, 6 hours Muay Thai and 2 Hours boxing per week. Do you think that is sufficient? I don't really many opportunities to train over and above that.
                        So all you do is train? It's a great gig if you can land it.

                        To me it sounds like you are seriously over extending yourself, receiving substandard instruction, or possibly full of crap. I mean if all you are doing is training... no school, no job, no strength training ... you should be fine with 18 hours a week on the mat and in the ring.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by WhiteBelt1234 View Post
                          I'm doing 4 hours of BJJ, 4 hours of Judo, 6 hours Muay Thai and 2 Hours boxing per week. Do you think that is sufficient?
                          Sufficient for what?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by WhiteBelt1234 View Post
                            Thanks for the advice, I'm doing 4 hours of BJJ, 4 hours of Judo, 6 hours Muay Thai and 2 Hours boxing per week. Do you think that is sufficient? I don't really many opportunities to train over and above that.
                            A couple of hours a night and over the weekend. That's doable. Especially if you're not married with kids.

                            I trained like that in college, but it was Muay Thai, boxing, and wrestling. If only I'd known about BJJ... Or maybe better I didn't, I'm sure there wasn't any around me at the time.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by BackFistMonkey View Post
                              So all you do is train? It's a great gig if you can land it.

                              To me it sounds like you are seriously over extending yourself, receiving substandard instruction, or possibly full of crap. I mean if all you are doing is training... no school, no job, no strength training ... you should be fine with 18 hours a week on the mat and in the ring.
                              Okay let me clarify, 16 hours is the most I get in, it's not uncommon for to cut back to about 13. I'm a student and I don't do any modules over and above the obligatory ones, given this and that the martial arts clubs I go to are run by the university meaning the gym and my accomodation are 5 mins apart I can just about squezze it in with good time mangement although I have to say it's not easy. I think that might possibly fall into the category of over extending myself, do you think that's sustainable in the long term? If not how many hours a week would you say are?

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