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Whatever happened to old fashioned, Japanese Jiu Jitsu?

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    Whatever happened to old fashioned, Japanese Jiu Jitsu?

    It's been a while, but I was wondering, has Aikido kind of taken over the whole standing Jiu Jitsu space? Anyway, just curious. It seems like BJJ is everywhere, but you never see too many JJJ schools. What do I know? I had back surgery, so training is sort of over, at my age. Just the weights and elliptical, no more rolling or sparring.
    "Coffee is for Closers" GlenGarry Glenross

    #2
    Most of what we think of as JJJ in the West is gendai which is kind of a modern creation, more like karate mixed with judo, mixed with aikido. I'm sure there is some that is more heavily influence by koryu or very traditional styles, which are taught now the way they were in pre-ww2 Japan but very little actual koryu jujutsu outside of Japan. It does exist though, just always been vey difficult to find and f you're into the practicality of something like judo and/or BJJ you probably won't think it's worth finding.

    If I'm not mistaken Plasma mentioned he once trained some traditional JJJ. I'm sure he has more insight.

    Comment


      #3
      JuJitsu? I thought that's where aikido, judo, and some hapkido came from. And there were all kinds of pre-ww2 jui jitsu schools. The japanese government picked and chose the best and safest techniques for sport judo.

      Remember the 1980 movie "Shogun", where the peasant doesn't bow fast enough and the Samurai lops off his head? When my shit for brains manager at a dallas semiconductor company saw that, he thought that he knew all about the japanese culture because he saw that scene. And that's why I qualified my statement above with, "I thought...".

      Comment


        #4
        JuJitsu? I thought that's where aikido, judo, and some hapkido came from. And there were all kinds of pre-ww2 jui jitsu schools. The japanese government picked and chose the best and safest techniques for sport judo.

        Remember the 1980 movie "Shogun", where the peasant doesn't bow fast enough and the Samurai lops off his head? When my shit for brains manager at a dallas semiconductor company saw that, he thought that he knew all about the japanese culture because he saw that scene. And that's why I qualified my statement above with, "I thought...".

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by laserleftfoot View Post
          JuJitsu? I thought that's where aikido, judo, and some hapkido came from. And there were all kinds of pre-ww2 jui jitsu schools. The japanese government picked and chose the best and safest techniques for sport judo.

          Remember the 1980 movie "Shogun", where the peasant doesn't bow fast enough and the Samurai lops off his head? When my shit for brains manager at a dallas semiconductor company saw that, he thought that he knew all about the japanese culture because he saw that scene. And that's why I qualified my statement above with, "I thought...".
          Replace 'japanese government' with Kano Jigoro and you're more or less correct. I've trained some JJJ and in my experience BJMills is correct about present day JJJ, it's heavily influenced by karate, judo, aikido, and these days also BJJ. That said there are still things that suggest some more direct influences from older JJJ as well.

          Comment


            #6
            Theres a school not far from me that teaches bunjinkan. At first i thought it was a ninjitsu place. Well they dress in a gi and it seems to be jujitsu. They do alot of locks and throws, some striking and 'forms'. The guy that runs the show is a really nice guy, doesnt market it as teh deadly or anything and focuses on his students alot. He said alot of the curriculum is based off 5 books. Which were all different schools of jujitsu from the looks of them.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by new2bjj View Post
              It's been a while, but I was wondering, has Aikido kind of taken over the whole standing Jiu Jitsu space? Anyway, just curious. It seems like BJJ is everywhere, but you never see too many JJJ schools. What do I know? I had back surgery, so training is sort of over, at my age. Just the weights and elliptical, no more rolling or sparring.
              There are still Japanese Jujutsu Ryu-Ha about, it just not very popular. With the on set of BJJ and MMA, a lot of the dojos have gone out of business or regulated to small non-profit clubs. I know the JJJ school I studied at for 7 years, closed up shop a few years ago.
              Last edited by plasma; 2/05/2016 4:41am, .

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Kravbizarre View Post
                Theres a school not far from me that teaches bunjinkan. At first i thought it was a ninjitsu place. Well they dress in a gi and it seems to be jujitsu. They do alot of locks and throws, some striking and 'forms'. The guy that runs the show is a really nice guy, doesnt market it as teh deadly or anything and focuses on his students alot. He said alot of the curriculum is based off 5 books. Which were all different schools of jujitsu from the looks of them.
                Bujinkan is garbage. They started as a "Ninja" school when Ninjutsu was popular, then switched to "Taijutsu" with emphasis on the JJJ Ryu-Ha after that turned out to be silly (and serious issues came up regarding their lineage). But when it comes down to it, their training method are straight up LaRP-ish, they lineage is primarily made up, and Hatsumi's main reason for starting the org was to take advantage and get rich on stupid westerners after Stephen Hayes showed it was possible.

                Those 5 books, aren't schools of Jujutsu, but some text made up by Hatsumi to sell to his followers. Here is a break down of the Bujinkan from the Bullshido FAQ:

                http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=85108

                Kukishin-ryu/Takagi Yoshin-ryu: Sister Samurai Arts that have been handed down together an have MANY branches of their tree.
                Gyokko-ryu/Koto-ryu: Sister Arts for the Iga Region associated with Modern Ninjutsu
                Shinden Fudo-ryu: Samurai Art that have a few legitimate branches
                Togakure-ryu: Originally intended to be billed as Kukishin-ryu Ninpo (didn't get approval from the Kuki family) it is a collection of Ninjutsu techniques Takamatsu collected and organized into a Ryu-ha so the techniques wouldn't be lost to history. While the techniques are old, the Ryu-ha itself is only 60 years old.
                Gyokushin-ryu/Kumogakure-ryu: Don't exist, Aren't taught.
                Gikan-ryu: Legitimate Line passed Akimoto Fumio then to Akimoto Koki. The Bujinkan doesn't teach it even though Hatsumi has trained in the art, but is not the recognized Grandmaster. Gikan-ryu is still taught in Japan through its legitimate lineage.

                Basically Bujinkan is Hatsumi's poor understanding of Kukishin-ryu,Takagi Yoshin-ryu,Gyokko-ryu,Koto-ryu and Shinden Fudo-ryu mashed together and poorly taught.
                Last edited by plasma; 2/05/2016 4:46am, .

                Comment


                  #9
                  Q: Whatever happened to old fashioned, Japanese Jiu Jitsu?

                  A: Judo happened

                  /thread

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Here is a link to a school that practices Nihon Jujutsu, a distillation of jujutsu techniques thought to be useful for Police and Military application developed in conjunction with some very highly ranked and highly regarded leaders from the early Kodokan.
                    One of the instructors is a gentleman name Nick Suino sensei, who is an accomplished Judoka, Iaido practitioner, and Nihon Jujutsu practitioner who lived for several years in Japan, specifically to learn and practice traditional Japanese martial arts.
                    He has an excellent reputation, makes no excessive claims, and aside from being a well regarded martial artist, is I believe a practicing attorney for many years.

                    Link to Suino Sensei's dojo group:
                    http://itama.org/jujutsu/jujutsu.html

                    I would note that I have no background in Nihon Jujutsu
                    (which I believe literally means Japanese jujutsu)
                    other than one of my early BJJ students and Judo training partners, also trained at the Nick Suino Sensei's dojo for several years before moving back to Florida,
                    and he would occasionally show me the Nihon Jujutsu variations he had learned previously
                    when I would demonstrate the Gracie standing self defense curriculum as part of the regular BJJ class work.

                    I would also note in all candor, that Japanese Jujutsu seems to have valuable alternatives to offer some of the BJJ-ish and GJJ-ish basic standing self defense curriculum from an self-defense or LEO perspective.
                    For example, bringing an assailant to the belly down position, where they are flattened on their belly is more useful in a self-defense context in many ways than bringing them to a position to where you are in the top cross body and they are facing you.
                    The older systems of Jujutsu, seemed to stress the end goal of bringing an assailant to the flattened out belly down position, where you still had good peripheral vision and the ability to handcuff them (or tie them up), draw a weapon, or quickly disengage.
                    When we compare that to the newer, more sportive forms, such as Judo, Sambo, and BJJ, there seems to be a lot more curriculum focusing on the top cross body and mount positions where the opponent is still actually facing you, or you are on their back but they are possibly immobilizing somewhat you while you are there.

                    The argument then becomes one of how practical is the expectation that you would be able to bring a skilled grappling opponent to the belly down flattened out position, where you still had mobility and my own answer there is: it depends.

                    There is a lot of reasons not to want to be deprived of the ability to quickly disengage in a real combat environment where the rules of engagement are not agreed upon, there is no referee, and no guarantee that the situation outside of just the immediate opponent won't quickly escalate around you.

                    So, I love sport, but I think that there is value in considering older points of view that were not concerned at all with sporting contexts.
                    And, sometimes studying history has its own rewards, if you like history (which I do).
                    Last edited by Dr. Gonzo; 2/05/2016 8:13am, .

                    Comment


                      #11
                      There's a local school that teaches Japanese Jujutsu. Don't ask me about the historical accuracy of the training. I honestly have no clue. They also teach Judo and the Jujutsu practice would include lots of techniques that would be illegal in Judo and it also includes some striking and striking defenses. Some standing submissions and stuff like that. Probably some weapons defense.

                      It's crap on it's own because there's zero aliveness, but there may be some value when mixed with live grappling training. Honestly, a lot of it is very similar to a lot of the self defense stuff that most of the Gracie schools do and people whine about it because they're overly leery of the "too deadly for sparring" garbage. That's silly. There's nothing wrong with training these types of techniques as long as you're not basing your whole martial arts repertoire on it. A good Judo guy or BJJ guy will be able to implement some of the JJJ stuff effectively but most others will not be able to implement any of it effectively.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        The short answer is Judo
                        The longer answer is still Judo but then the heavier emphasis of the sporting aspects of Judo instead of the Martial Arts aspects.
                        So some people thought that they should add back in stuff they felt was missing from Judo.
                        So you have JJJ (although it should really be called American JJ).
                        There is a style of this sort of JJ I do like.
                        http://www.shingitaijujitsu.info/
                        https://www.johnsaylorsja.com/
                        Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
                        –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by new2bjj View Post
                          It's been a while, but I was wondering, has Aikido kind of taken over the whole standing Jiu Jitsu space? Anyway, just curious. It seems like BJJ is everywhere, but you never see too many JJJ schools. What do I know? I had back surgery, so training is sort of over, at my age. Just the weights and elliptical, no more rolling or sparring.
                          Aikido is a form of JJJ, even more so because it is as BJMills noted, a "gendai" budo. Just like Kodokan Judo is a gendai budo form of JJJ.
                          Falling for Judo since 1980

                          "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

                          "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

                          "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by laserleftfoot View Post
                            JuJitsu? I thought that's where aikido, judo, and some hapkido came from. And there were all kinds of pre-ww2 jui jitsu schools. The japanese government picked and chose the best and safest techniques for sport judo.

                            Remember the 1980 movie "Shogun", where the peasant doesn't bow fast enough and the Samurai lops off his head? When my shit for brains manager at a dallas semiconductor company saw that, he thought that he knew all about the japanese culture because he saw that scene. And that's why I qualified my statement above with, "I thought...".
                            The Japanese government ? LOL ! Stop thinking so much, you might hurt yourself...

                            Funny anecdote though, I'll give you that.
                            Falling for Judo since 1980

                            "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

                            "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

                            "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Kravbizarre View Post
                              Theres a school not far from me that teaches bunjinkan. At first i thought it was a ninjitsu place. Well they dress in a gi and it seems to be jujitsu. They do alot of locks and throws, some striking and 'forms'. The guy that runs the show is a really nice guy, doesnt market it as teh deadly or anything and focuses on his students alot. He said alot of the curriculum is based off 5 books. Which were all different schools of jujitsu from the looks of them.
                              What is passed off as bunjinkan/ninjutsu/ninpo tai jutsu etc etc. is nothing more than a made up mishmash of JJJ.
                              Falling for Judo since 1980

                              "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

                              "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

                              "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

                              Comment

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