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Whatever happened to old fashioned, Japanese Jiu Jitsu?

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    #76
    Originally posted by frenchie88 View Post
    Toby Threadgill seems to do okay with Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin Ryu.
    Who is Toby Threadgill?

    Comment


      #77
      One of the few americans who heads a legitimate classical japanese school.

      Last edited by DCS; 2/11/2016 2:29pm, .

      Comment


        #78
        Originally posted by DCS View Post
        One of the few americans who heads a legitimate classical japanese school.

        What makes a Japanese JuJutsu School legitimate?
        Lineage?
        Verifiable Years of Practice?
        Ability to Demonstrate the Authentic Curriculum associated with that art?
        Ability to have effective execution in the context of that art against resisting opponents?

        Comment


          #79
          Originally posted by DCS View Post
          One of the few americans who heads a legitimate classical japanese school.

          What makes a Japanese JuJutsu School legitimate?
          Lineage?
          Verifiable Years of Practice?
          Ability to Demonstrate the Authentic Curriculum associated with that art?
          Ability to have effective execution in the context of that art against resisting opponents?

          Comment


            #80
            Originally posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
            What makes a Japanese JuJutsu School legitimate?
            Lineage?
            Verifiable Years of Practice?
            Ability to Demonstrate the Authentic Curriculum associated with that art?
            Ability to have effective execution in the context of that art against resisting opponents?
            I think with koryu it's all about legitimate lineage and demonstrating correct technique in that compliant tori/uke setting.

            Never seen or heard of koryu against a resistng opponent. That would totally like mess up their correct movement, talk about a buzz kill.

            Comment


              #81
              Originally posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
              What makes a Japanese JuJutsu School legitimate?
              Lineage?
              Verifiable Years of Practice?
              Ability to Demonstrate the Authentic Curriculum associated with that art?
              Ability to have effective execution in the context of that art against resisting opponents?
              I think with koryu it's all about legitimate lineage and demonstrating correct technique in that compliant tori/uke setting.

              Never seen or heard of koryu against a resistng opponent. That would totally like mess up their correct movement, talk about a buzz kill.

              Comment


                #82
                I think that lineage is absolutely the worst way to manage things. It's a circle jerk. Imo JJJ can be rebuilt. It needs to be done technically with modern training methods though. Find the underlying principle, see what techniques make it happen, then refine them. That's martial arts. Lineage is for chunners and the federation :

                Comment


                  #83
                  Originally posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
                  What makes a Japanese JuJutsu School legitimate?
                  Lineage?
                  Verifiable Years of Practice?
                  Ability to Demonstrate the Authentic Curriculum associated with that art?
                  Ability to have effective execution in the context of that art against resisting opponents?
                  IIRC the school/style had to be founded before Meiji Restoration and passed uninterruptedly since then.

                  Regarding the knowledge and abilities to demonstrate or perform effectively the curriculum, that's a case by case basis.

                  Comment


                    #84
                    Originally posted by The Villain View Post
                    I think that lineage is absolutely the worst way to manage things. It's a circle jerk. Imo JJJ can be rebuilt. It needs to be done technically with modern training methods though. Find the underlying principle, see what techniques make it happen, then refine them. That's martial arts. Lineage is for chunners and the federation :
                    Lets do it! Once we know all the good shit, we'd have to come up with a catchy name to market it. Is "Judo" still taken?
                    Train hard, fight easy.

                    Comment


                      #85
                      Originally posted by The Villain View Post
                      I think that lineage is absolutely the worst way to manage things. It's a circle jerk. Imo JJJ can be rebuilt. It needs to be done technically with modern training methods though. Find the underlying principle, see what techniques make it happen, then refine them. That's martial arts. Lineage is for chunners and the federation :
                      So....Judo?
                      Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
                      –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

                      Comment


                        #86
                        Originally posted by goodlun View Post
                        So....Judo?
                        Beat you to it be a 0.splat of a second.
                        Train hard, fight easy.

                        Comment


                          #87
                          Originally posted by BJMills View Post
                          I think with koryu it's all about legitimate lineage and demonstrating correct technique in that compliant tori/uke setting.

                          Never seen or heard of koryu against a resistng opponent. That would totally like mess up their correct movement, talk about a buzz kill.
                          Let's look at 3 forms of Jiu-Jitsu as case examples assessed according to those metrics:

                          BRAZILIAN AND/OR GRACIE JIU-JITSU

                          Lineage?

                          BJJ has claim to lineage that leads up to various Japanese Jiu-Jitsu artists that trained at the Kodokan, among other Jiu-Jitsu and Pro Wrestling schools.

                          Verifiable Years of Practice?

                          Most Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belts train for 8-10 years before they reach the black belt.
                          The exceptions that got it done more quickly are almost always documented competition phenoms.

                          Ability to Demonstrate the Authentic Curriculum associated with that art?
                          Not all great black belt competitors have wide games,
                          not all know a "full" curriculum,
                          not all of them can "teach",
                          some BJJ BB have very narrow, specialist games,
                          some BJJ BB have outstanding physical attributes and are not very technical,
                          some BJJ BB ignore or never learn parts of the curriculum such as the standing self defense moves, throws/takedowns, striking grappling or submissions illegal by IBJJF rules.
                          Some BJJ BB follow the historical Mestre Helio curriculum,
                          some follow a more Fusion approach a al George Gracie, Carlson Gracie, Rolls Gracie, Osvaldo Alves etc,
                          some fall in-between.
                          So the "official" curriculum varies from school to school.

                          Ability to have effective execution in the context of that art against resisting opponents?

                          BJJ has always been a “show me” sport/art. Resisting opponents are the norm for free grappling practice and competition. Competition includes both a specialty sport form, a Vale Tudo form, and BJJ players can often cross compete, depending on the rules of the day in other grappling arts with varying levels of success.

                          JUDO

                          Lineage?
                          Kodokan; A fusion and redesign of the predecessor Jiu-Jitsu (and other martial arts, including Sumo, Western wrestling, and possibly some incorporation of Karate and Aikido from Tomiki’s and Mifune’s cross trained udeschi’s influence.

                          Verifiable Years of Practice?
                          Generally 5 years to black belt for competitors, give or take.
                          Generally longer than 5 years for non-competitors.
                          Some in house dojo promotions are quicker than 5 years though, even for non-competitors.

                          Ability to Demonstrate the Authentic Curriculum associated with that art?
                          Some schools are very competitive, and only require their members to be able to demonstrate the minimum requirements of a particular organization to get a black belt.
                          Other schools are much more rigorous in their technical requirements for black belts and require a full ability to demonstrate the Gokyo, or full ability to identify and demonstrate the 67 throws, and or require a full demonstration of Nage No Kata, Katame no Kata, and Goshin Jutsu Kata to get a black belt instead of the partials that most competitive Judo organizations require.
                          Technical requirements vary, and at various points in history, batsugen or tournament success spot promotions up to black belt and even through the dan ranks of black belt have been common.

                          Ability to have effective execution in the context of that art against resisting opponents?
                          One of Judo’s original innovations was the regular practice of Randori (practice where both partners may simultaneously attempt offense, and Shiai, where both players attempt to win.
                          Judo players also convert well to MMA, with some adaptation.
                          The Judo men versus Catch/Pro Wrestling matches in the early 1900's where also common entertainment for the masses.

                          AIKIDO

                          Lineage?
                          The founder of Aikido was trained by a Daito Ryu master.

                          Verifiable Years of Practice?
                          I don’t know.
                          Any Aikido folks want to comment?

                          Ability to Demonstrate the Authentic Curriculum associated with that art?
                          I don’t know.
                          But I would guess they do based on comments made by some of my friends and colleagues who are Aikido teachers.
                          Any Aikido folks want to comment?

                          Ability to have effective execution in the context of that art against resisting opponents?
                          I don’t know.
                          I am told that many of the Aikido schools do not practice with resistance,
                          some do practice with resistance,
                          and that some practice with “fake” resistance.
                          I suspect that the majority do not use resistance,
                          and a minority practice with some level of real resistance
                          (especially those schools that also do Judo and/or a striking art),
                          and a minority of schools are selling the psychic power business, where it is fake-a-doodle-do.
                          I have read in historical letters around the time the Kodokan was forming it’s curriculums, and prior to World War II,
                          that at various points Aikido had matches with Judo players,
                          in which both the Judo and the Aikido players report that the Aikido players did well at by using techniques which had been illegal in Judo for a while, such as the shomenate to the face as their Kuzushi preceding their throw.
                          In fact there are a couple letters that state that some of the Aikido techniques were designed specifically to exploit Judo habits from the Judo rules governed practice.
                          There are also a couple branches of Aikido that practice randori and shiai competitions such as Tomiki Aikido.
                          This may have been an attempt to inject Judo innovation into Aikido with the style of practice,
                          but just as likely was because to use certain Japanese university facilities, sports with competition where given priority over activities that did not have competitive elements.
                          In the historical letters regarding Aikido, the founder had a reputation as an excellent showman, and demonstrator with compliant uke’s.
                          However, interestingly, the historical letters also document that the Daito-Ryu teacher of the founder of Aikido had a reputation for being a real ass kicker,
                          who would go from place to place,
                          fighting all comers, losing occasionally,
                          but generally beating people in full on fights.
                          In fact, one of the founder of Aikido’s top students recorded that the founder of Aikido frequently fled the area when his teacher came in town to collect his license fees, which the founder of Aikido was apparently very bad about paying.

                          As for other branches of Japanese Jiu-Jitsu,
                          I can’t say because while they are out there,
                          they seem to have faded into a real minority status compared to Judo, Aikido, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

                          I see no reason why every martial art could not be graded according to above metrics.
                          Just because they score poorly in one area does not necessarily mean they are not legitimate.

                          It is noteworthy, that BJJ and Judo are both fusion forms of Jiu-Jitsu.
                          Judo took elements of several types of Jiu-Jitsu, Sumo, and Wrestling, perhaps even some things from Karate teachers that Kano had to visit the Kodokan.
                          And, (G)BJJ took things from Jiu-Jitsu AND Catch Wrestling, as well as later taking things again from sports Judo, Freestyle Wrestling, Greco Wrestling etc under Carlson, Rolls, and Osvaldo Alves influences on the sport.
                          So, perhaps lineage is not as important as a well executed fusion, lots of years of practice, in environments with both non-resisting AND resisting ukes, with competition tournaments, and that can cross compete somewhat well in other rulesets than its own, particularly "formless" rulesets such as Vale Tudo.

                          I think all of this is somewhat obvious, except the distinction that perhaps lineage (and certainly belt ranks) does not matter as much as the mass consumer market seems to prioritize it.
                          Last edited by Dr. Gonzo; 2/12/2016 10:43am, .

                          Comment


                            #88
                            Originally posted by The Villain View Post
                            I think that lineage is absolutely the worst way to manage things. It's a circle jerk. Imo JJJ can be rebuilt. It needs to be done technically with modern training methods though. Find the underlying principle, see what techniques make it happen, then refine them. That's martial arts. Lineage is for chunners and the federation :
                            Look, I don't disagree with you in terms of effectiveness, I'm just saying koryu is more about the exact preservation of a specific style or set of techniques than it is about fighting.

                            I don't particularly care to train like that. You don't train like that. But for some people it's more about the history and tradition than anything else.

                            If someone wants to LARP and knows they are LARPing and doesn't pretend it's anything else then that's their choice.

                            Comment


                              #89
                              Good question, what makes it Ju Ji/utsu?
                              This has been brought up before http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52528

                              The WJJF for instance is a huge organisation in not only the UK, but Europe. Federation JJ clubs are as common as any Judo or TKD club in any local leisure centre here. If I forge Japanese documents, make up my own syllabus with techniques used in Koryu JJJ, put on a Gi and use Japanese terms, am I, or whoever is practising an evolved form of it, practising Ju Jitsu?
                              Last edited by Ulsteryank; 2/12/2016 3:16pm, .

                              Comment


                                #90
                                Originally posted by Ulsteryank View Post
                                Good question, what makes it Ju Ji/utsu?
                                This has been brought up before http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52528

                                The WJJF for instance is a huge organisation in not only the UK, but Europe. Federation JJ clubs are as common as any Judo or TKD club in any local leisure centre here. If I forge Japanese documents, make up my own syllabus with techniques used in Koryu JJJ, put on a Gi and use Japanese terms, am I, or whoever is practising an evolved form of it, practising Ju Jitsu?
                                The Bujinkan seems to have gotten away with it.

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