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Whatever happened to old fashioned, Japanese Jiu Jitsu?

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    #61
    Originally posted by goodlun View Post
    Judo is and always has been a grappling art, most "self defense" aspects of this are based on the fact that its a grappling art.
    Grappling works just fine for self defense. Of course when we talk "self defense" one really needs to define it as the spectrum is rather large.
    Judo does have a striking syllabus but mostly in a kata form. So its sort of pointless.
    There are arts that incorporate striking, throwing, and ground fighting.
    For example:
    Karatedo Daido Juku

    Pancration

    Combat Sambo

    Real Combat Stick Fighting/Dog brothers/Kali Tudo

    and of course
    MMA
    The strikes in the goshin jutsu and Kime No Kata are not instructed in detail, and are there for the purpose of learning the defense. I've never been given detailed instruction on how to do any of them when I have taken lessons in them (Goshin Jutsu and Kime No Kata). That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, however, I wouldn't consider that "part of the syllabus".
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

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      #62
      Love the hidden weapons in Dog Brothers, especially the guy with the snubby, LOL!
      Falling for Judo since 1980

      "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

      "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

      "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

      Comment


        #63
        Originally posted by BKR View Post
        The strikes in the goshin jutsu and Kime No Kata are not instructed in detail, and are there for the purpose of learning the defense. I've never been given detailed instruction on how to do any of them when I have taken lessons in them (Goshin Jutsu and Kime No Kata). That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, however, I wouldn't consider that "part of the syllabus".
        I look at striking in Grappling arts much the same way I look at anti-grappling in striking arts. Its really hard to learn the defense from someone that doesn't know offense.
        Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
        –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

        Comment


          #64
          Originally posted by goodlun View Post
          I look at striking in Grappling arts much the same way I look at anti-grappling in striking arts. Its really hard to learn the defense from someone that doesn't know offense.
          Very true... In defense of goshin jutsu, it's not meant to be for defense from a skilled fighter, apparently. However, I think that the Kodokan could do itself a favor by developing a better self defense curriculum. It's not all horrible at all.

          The other thing is, people confuse self defense with dueling. This is something Mark Tripp pointed out a long time ago here and other places, and people should keep in mind.
          Falling for Judo since 1980

          "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

          "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

          "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

          Comment


            #65
            Originally posted by BKR View Post
            Very true... In defense of goshin jutsu, it's not meant to be for defense from a skilled fighter, apparently. However, I think that the Kodokan could do itself a favor by developing a better self defense curriculum. It's not all horrible at all.

            The other thing is, people confuse self defense with dueling. This is something Mark Tripp pointed out a long time ago here and other places, and people should keep in mind.
            None of this will be news to you but
            I think Judo is a very viable platform for self defense and dueling if you will.
            Once someone has a solid sport base, then self defense specific training makes sense to me if someone is so inclined.
            I think there are some real nuggets of gold in this video.
            Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
            –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

            Comment


              #66
              Originally posted by goodlun View Post
              None of this will be news to you but
              I think Judo is a very viable platform for self defense and dueling if you will.
              Once someone has a solid sport base, then self defense specific training makes sense to me if someone is so inclined.
              I think there are some real nuggets of gold in this video.
              I agree about solid "sport" base. That guy was was messing up though, giving up control in order to knuckle the guy on bottom.

              Guy puts his hand in my face I'm going to bite him. Or keep proper position and not get the hand i the face in the first place. Or put my shoulder under his chin and choke/neck crank him.

              Better yet, shift to knee on face position, LOL !
              Falling for Judo since 1980

              "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

              "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

              "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

              Comment


                #67
                I wouldn't call solid sport base having the knee pointed at the ceiling while in kesa.

                Comment


                  #68
                  Originally posted by BKR View Post
                  I'd like to see the atemi waza syllabus of Kodokan Judo, if you can find one. From the Kodokan, not something somebody added on later. Like the Gokyo No Waza of atemi waza, books with detailed instructions, stuff like that. Like we have for all the grappling aspect of Judo. I'd assume that they would be integrated with the nage and katame waza.

                  I've read that Tenjin shin'Yo Ryu was the source of the atemi in Judo, as well as most of the katame waza. Kito Ryu was mostly judoesque nage waza, or what was left of Kito Ryu by the time Kano was into it.

                  I think your kuzushi quote is from aikido, BTW.
                  That quote could be from Aikido, or older Jujutsu...
                  I had though I had read it in the Canon of Judo by Mifune, or perhaps Tomiki said it, which would make it both Aikido and Judo applicable.
                  Or I could just be making stuff up, as I do that sometimes.
                  This is not an atemi syllabus, but it is nonetheless a fascinating warts and all read about the early big name pioneers of Judo in Japan:
                  http://www.amazon.com/The-Way-Judo-P.../dp/1590309162
                  Apparently, many of them got kicked out of the Kodokan for drinking and then fighting on the streets.
                  As we might expect of a bunch of 20 something rough and tumble guys of their day.
                  Some were later readmitted, but some remained respected outcasts.
                  Last edited by Dr. Gonzo; 2/07/2016 3:43pm, .

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Originally posted by goodlun View Post
                    None of this will be news to you but
                    I think Judo is a very viable platform for self defense and dueling if you will.
                    Once someone has a solid sport base, then self defense specific training makes sense to me if someone is so inclined.
                    I think there are some real nuggets of gold in this video.
                    Practiced by Big Brothers everywhere...

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Originally posted by BJMills View Post
                      This is exactly karate + judo. When you google point karate plus judo this video comes up...

                      Okay maybe not, but it should!
                      This looks like sport jujitsu. Which was taught and promoted by Ernie Boggs. It was basically supposed to be light contact MMA. No idea what happened to Me Boggs though.


                      Sent from my Z797C using Tapatalk

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Originally posted by DCS View Post
                        I wouldn't call solid sport base having the knee pointed at the ceiling while in kesa.
                        I agree, not sure how good that guy's judo is, but he doesn't look very technical. The whole concept of "dirty Judo" is kind of funny, really.
                        Falling for Judo since 1980

                        "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

                        "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

                        "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Originally posted by new2bjj View Post
                          Thanks for all the answers. One of my assumptions was that LEO's use a lot of restraint techniques, and that would seem to be a preferred, niche art, not necessarily a one size fits all. I had wondered, did something supplement that for wrist locks (Aikido, standup stuff in BJJ). I certainly didn't think that JJJ was the deadly, and Judo is a much more alive art. One other question, is Judo making a comeback, or has BJJ pretty much eaten it's lunch? By comeback I mean schools opening up, etc.
                          Judo is still one of the most popular grappling and Martial Arts in the World. Don't view what is going on in the United States and a microcosm of the world. BJJ is still less popular in Brazil than Judo. The only reason you see BJJ gaining popularity in the States is due to the the surge of popularity of MMA, the fact the Gracies moved to the United States in the 90s, there is a lot of disposable income to spend on lessons and lastly the fact Judo was never that popular in the United States as compared to the rest of the world.

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                            #73
                            Toby Threadgill seems to do okay with Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin Ryu.

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                              #74
                              I once asked the very same question from an elderly japanese strange man

                              His answer was simply (in a very dreadful tone) - "What happened? The Street happened..."

                              Comment


                                #75
                                Originally posted by Dork Angel View Post
                                I remember training beside you guys in comber. I think it was Gary McAllister ran that club. Our clubs split from Robert Clarke/Mark Noble back in the 80's and we kind of affiliated with Jack McKeown. I remember when Sport Jujitsu was starting and we were still trying to iron out the rules. It's all a bit hazy now but I think I remember no strikes to the head and no strikes on the ground. If you got a throw/takedown you only had 10 seconds to get a submission or you were separated and stood back up. You were scored in your striking (8, 9 or 10) and there were points for throws (3) and takedowns (1). RNC counted as a KO or you could take some points and carry on.
                                Thanks for the response. Yea Gary is still the main guy behind the NITJA. My first two MMA coaches, Eoin and Mark, were from the Comber Club as well, who went on to BJJ, Muay Thai, and of course MMA The owner of my current club, Rick, was part of a few others who left NITJA as well and started their own school.

                                The break from Robert Clarke was what I was interested in. From what I've read those that traveled to Bolton received their dans in Juko-ryu, and if I'm correct Northern Ireland Ju Jitsu became Northern Ireland Tai Jutsu after Jack encouraged live competition, and added western boxing & Muay Thai to the strikes. I guess this was part of the split from Robert Clarke, and the Juko-ryu lineage is still questionable.....cheers!

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