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Whatever happened to old fashioned, Japanese Jiu Jitsu?

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    #46
    Originally posted by new2bjj View Post
    Thanks for all the answers. One of my assumptions was that LEO's use a lot of restraint techniques, and that would seem to be a preferred, niche art, not necessarily a one size fits all. I had wondered, did something supplement that for wrist locks (Aikido, standup stuff in BJJ). I certainly didn't think that JJJ was the deadly, and Judo is a much more alive art. One other question, is Judo making a comeback, or has BJJ pretty much eaten it's lunch? By comeback I mean schools opening up, etc.
    If you look at Judo outside of North America, it far outpaces BJJ in terms of organization, participation, etc. Judo has been disrupted and disorganized for a long time in the USA for sure, as murphyphd has noted and we've discussed here before.

    BJJ is for-profit in USA, Judo for the vast majority is not.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

    Comment


      #47
      Originally posted by new2bjj View Post
      Thanks for all the answers. One of my assumptions was that LEO's use a lot of restraint techniques, and that would seem to be a preferred, niche art, not necessarily a one size fits all. I had wondered, did something supplement that for wrist locks (Aikido, standup stuff in BJJ). I certainly didn't think that JJJ was the deadly, and Judo is a much more alive art. One other question, is Judo making a comeback, or has BJJ pretty much eaten it's lunch? By comeback I mean schools opening up, etc.
      LEO use a lot of pig pile, ASP, TASER, and OC Spray, bean bag guns, and firearms. When a perp is a "no" person, wristy-twisty goes out the door quickly. You go and try to wrist lock a pissed off, drunk or (high on meth, the best) 200 lb guy...go right ahead...
      Falling for Judo since 1980

      "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

      "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

      "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

      Comment


        #48
        Originally posted by BKR View Post
        LEO use a lot of pig pile, ASP, TASER, and OC Spray, bean bag guns, and firearms. When a perp is a "no" person, wristy-twisty goes out the door quickly. You go and try to wrist lock a pissed off, drunk or (high on meth, the best) 200 lb guy...go right ahead...
        The LEO's that I've talked to after fighting them a point karate tournament all know about hapkido, aikido, and jui jitsu wrist locks. This is after I explain to the pissed off off duty cop that point fighting isn't real fighting, and they can buy my shiny plastic trophy for $20. The price of a good rib eye. I learned from them, that they have to qualify on just 6 hand cuff techniques once a year. And that in the field, everyone narrows it down to one or two favorites.

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          #49
          Originally posted by new2bjj View Post
          Thanks for all the answers. One of my assumptions was that LEO's use a lot of restraint techniques, and that would seem to be a preferred, niche art, not necessarily a one size fits all. I had wondered, did something supplement that for wrist locks (Aikido, standup stuff in BJJ). I certainly didn't think that JJJ was the deadly, and Judo is a much more alive art. One other question, is Judo making a comeback, or has BJJ pretty much eaten it's lunch? By comeback I mean schools opening up, etc.
          Like BKR has said, WFMurphyPhD has got it spot on by saying that Judo isn't going anywhere on the international scene.

          That said, in the UK the two main Judo federations (BJA and BJC) have been both losing numbers in recent years, and are at least half of what they where back in the 80s when they were at their height in terms of members.

          This isn't so much to do with the prevalence for BJJ, it's still a (comparatively) very niche MA in the UK, arguably the societal changes (cost, time commitments for children/parents, prevalence of video games) to do with sport participation, combined with a little of the prevalence and exposure of the UFC and MMA have more to do with it.

          Comment


            #50
            Originally posted by Bar Humbug View Post
            Like BKR has said, WFMurphyPhD has got it spot on by saying that Judo isn't going anywhere on the international scene.

            That said, in the UK the two main Judo federations (BJA and BJC) have been both losing numbers in recent years, and are at least half of what they where back in the 80s when they were at their height in terms of members.

            This isn't so much to do with the prevalence for BJJ, it's still a (comparatively) very niche MA in the UK, arguably the societal changes (cost, time commitments for children/parents, prevalence of video games) to do with sport participation, combined with a little of the prevalence and exposure of the UFC and MMA have more to do with it.
            I'm both surprised and sad to hear you report that.
            I've always been a bit of a Neil Adams fan, and I had assumed that UK Judo was fairly strong and popular due to the quality of players and tournament footage of UK Judo players we frequently get to see.
            And some of the rather excellent Judo books from UK old timers and the long history of UK Judo as one of the early international participating countries outside of Japan.
            I frankly assumed that the Judo leadership must have been pretty strong in the UK.
            Bummer.

            Comment


              #51
              Originally posted by new2bjj View Post
              Thanks for all the answers. One of my assumptions was that LEO's use a lot of restraint techniques,
              I would say that most of the time when a LEO is restraining someone that person is compliant most of the time.
              When they are not compliant LEOs typical out number suspects so they can use 2 or 3 on 1 tactics to get compliance.
              Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
              –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

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                #52
                Professionalism and knowing how to speak to people with polite authority will get a LEO much further than any martial art will.
                Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
                –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

                Comment


                  #53
                  Originally posted by goodlun View Post
                  Professionalism and knowing how to speak to people with polite authority will get a LEO much further than any martial art will.
                  And if that fails they can just shoot them.

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Seems like a lot of that going on lately, but who knows. I remember the term stress violence from some writer. I.E. people are economically stressed and resentful, therefore they are more edgy, etc, nothing to lose and so on. I don't want to derail things, though. Another question, do most Judo instructors teach the armlocks and strikes, i.e. self defense aspects of Judo, anymore?
                    "Coffee is for Closers" GlenGarry Glenross

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Originally posted by new2bjj View Post
                      Seems like a lot of that going on lately, but who knows. I remember the term stress violence from some writer. I.E. people are economically stressed and resentful, therefore they are more edgy, etc, nothing to lose and so on. I don't want to derail things, though. Another question, do most Judo instructors teach the armlocks and strikes, i.e. self defense aspects of Judo, anymore?
                      Well, I teach armlocks all the time. If you mean wristy-twisty, no, I don't. Strikes..well, I tell you what, you find any official syllabus or instruction for atemi waza (striking) in Kodokan Judo, from any era, and I mean done by the Kodokan, for me, then we can talk. I've read that Kano was interested in trying to add atemi waza into randori, but the project died when he did, more or less. He was very concerned because atemi was viewed as very dangerous by the Japanese. Whether or not it really was, we will never know...or maybe we do, you know, pressure point fighting.

                      To further answer, the only official self defense kata in Judo are the Goshin Jutsu, the Joshi Goshin Jutsu Ho (womens self defense), and the older Kime No Kata. So not really.
                      Falling for Judo since 1980

                      "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

                      "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

                      "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Originally posted by new2bjj View Post
                        Seems like a lot of that going on lately, but who knows. I remember the term stress violence from some writer. I.E. people are economically stressed and resentful, therefore they are more edgy, etc, nothing to lose and so on. I don't want to derail things, though. Another question, do most Judo instructors teach the armlocks and strikes, i.e. self defense aspects of Judo, anymore?
                        There is an old Judo saying from the early days of the Kodokan,
                        "The Best Kuzushi (unbalancing technique) is Atemi-Waza (a strike)".
                        The early pioneers of the Kodokan did not start as the well behaved old men you tend to see in the photographs and later demonstrations.

                        Many Judo clubs emphasize sports competition to the exclusion of the complete martial art aspect of Judo, but not all.

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Originally posted by new2bjj View Post
                          Another question, do most Judo instructors teach the armlocks and strikes, i.e. self defense aspects of Judo, anymore?
                          Judo is and always has been a grappling art, most "self defense" aspects of this are based on the fact that its a grappling art.
                          Grappling works just fine for self defense. Of course when we talk "self defense" one really needs to define it as the spectrum is rather large.
                          Judo does have a striking syllabus but mostly in a kata form. So its sort of pointless.
                          There are arts that incorporate striking, throwing, and ground fighting.
                          For example:
                          Karatedo Daido Juku

                          Pancration

                          Combat Sambo

                          Real Combat Stick Fighting/Dog brothers/Kali Tudo

                          and of course
                          MMA
                          Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
                          –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

                          Comment


                            #58
                            I had meant, basically the Kata part, so to speak. Also, by self defense I meant staged situations, etc. Judo/Grappling is a an excellent way to defend yourself, I was just wondering more about the Atemi, etc.
                            "Coffee is for Closers" GlenGarry Glenross

                            Comment


                              #59
                              All I have to say right now is, Jesus Christ, after watching the Hendricks/Thompson fight I may need to re-evaluate my thoughts on point karate...

                              ��

                              Comment


                                #60
                                Originally posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
                                There is an old Judo saying from the early days of the Kodokan,
                                "The Best Kuzushi (unbalancing technique) is Atemi-Waza (a strike)".
                                The early pioneers of the Kodokan did not start as the well behaved old men you tend to see in the photographs and later demonstrations.

                                Many Judo clubs emphasize sports competition to the exclusion of the complete martial art aspect of Judo, but not all.
                                I'd like to see the atemi waza syllabus of Kodokan Judo, if you can find one. From the Kodokan, not something somebody added on later. Like the Gokyo No Waza of atemi waza, books with detailed instructions, stuff like that. Like we have for all the grappling aspect of Judo. I'd assume that they would be integrated with the nage and katame waza.

                                I've read that Tenjin shin'Yo Ryu was the source of the atemi in Judo, as well as most of the katame waza. Kito Ryu was mostly judoesque nage waza, or what was left of Kito Ryu by the time Kano was into it.

                                I think your kuzushi quote is from aikido, BTW.
                                Falling for Judo since 1980

                                "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

                                "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

                                "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

                                Comment

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