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Whatever happened to old fashioned, Japanese Jiu Jitsu?

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    #16
    Originally posted by BKR View Post
    is nothing more than a made up mishmash of JJJ.
    Well to be fair most JJJ is also just a made up mishmash of techniques based on wild conjecture about self defense.
    Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
    –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

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      #17
      OP, where are you located?

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        #18
        Originally posted by plasma View Post
        Bujinkan is garbage. They started as a "Ninja" school when Ninjutsu was popular, then switched to "Taijutsu" with emphasis on the JJJ Ryu-Ha after that turned out to be silly (and serious issues came up regarding their lineage). But when it comes down to it, their training method are straight up LaRP-ish, they lineage is primarily made up, and Hatsumi's main reason for starting the org was to take advantage and get rich on stupid westerners after Stephen Hayes showed it was possible.

        Those 5 books, aren't schools of Jujutsu, but some text made up by Hatsumi to sell to his followers. Here is a break down of the Bujinkan from the Bullshido FAQ:

        http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=85108

        Kukishin-ryu/Takagi Yoshin-ryu: Sister Samurai Arts that have been handed down together an have MANY branches of their tree.
        Gyokko-ryu/Koto-ryu: Sister Arts for the Iga Region associated with Modern Ninjutsu
        Shinden Fudo-ryu: Samurai Art that have a few legitimate branches
        Togakure-ryu: Originally intended to be billed as Kukishin-ryu Ninpo (didn't get approval from the Kuki family) it is a collection of Ninjutsu techniques Takamatsu collected and organized into a Ryu-ha so the techniques wouldn't be lost to history. While the techniques are old, the Ryu-ha itself is only 60 years old.
        Gyokushin-ryu/Kumogakure-ryu: Don't exist, Aren't taught.
        Gikan-ryu: Legitimate Line passed Akimoto Fumio then to Akimoto Koki. The Bujinkan doesn't teach it even though Hatsumi has trained in the art, but is not the recognized Grandmaster. Gikan-ryu is still taught in Japan through its legitimate lineage.

        Basically Bujinkan is Hatsumi's poor understanding of Kukishin-ryu,Takagi Yoshin-ryu,Gyokko-ryu,Koto-ryu and Shinden Fudo-ryu mashed together and poorly taught.
        You left out Hatsumi critical training and expertise in theater. And bonesetting...
        Falling for Judo since 1980

        "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

        "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

        "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

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          #19
          Originally posted by goodlun View Post
          Well to be fair most JJJ is also just a made up mishmash of techniques based on wild conjecture about self defense.
          Even most "koryu" JJJ is/was not especially effective and modified for civilian self-defense or fighting.
          Falling for Judo since 1980

          "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

          "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

          "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by BKR View Post
            Even most "koryu" JJJ is/was not especially effective and modified for civilian self-defense or fighting.
            Very true.
            I also would propose that any sort of "battlefield" art, falls into this sort of category in general.
            Then to compounded the issue with "koryu" JJJ is that the arts being handed down have something lost in translation as many of those people obviously never saw a battlefield much less a pre-Meiji restoration battlefield.
            Lets not forget that the Samurai from lets say from the Edo period forward where not really testing their arts.
            Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
            –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

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              #21
              Dan Severn loves raping people.

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by Holy Moment View Post
                So then is judo just jujutsu without all the extra useless crap?? That video just seemed judo like. Anyway martial arts are an ever evolving animal so it makes me wonder why people are so drawn towards the older versions. It's like wanting to drive a model T instead of a modern car with AC and power seats.

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by BKR View Post
                  Even most "koryu" JJJ is/was not especially effective and modified for civilian self-defense or fighting.
                  Believe it or not, my Ko-ryu Training when it came is timing and distance with weapons as well as weapons retention and footwork has benefited me in both self-defense training as well as force on force training.

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by plasma View Post
                    Believe it or not, my Ko-ryu Training when it came is timing and distance with weapons as well as weapons retention and footwork has benefited me in both self-defense training as well as force on force training.
                    I wouldn't doubt that in the least. There is a wide range of koryu, as you know. I learned stuff about randori methods from doing the Judo Goshin Jutsu (no kata) that were quite effective in competition.

                    It's not all bad or useless. Even Aikido !
                    Falling for Judo since 1980

                    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

                    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

                    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
                      So then is judo just jujutsu without all the extra useless crap?? That video just seemed judo like. Anyway martial arts are an ever evolving animal so it makes me wonder why people are so drawn towards the older versions. It's like wanting to drive a model T instead of a modern car with AC and power seats.
                      Not everything in JJJ, koryu or otherwise is useless crap. Yeah, looked like karate point fighting with judo-esque grappling, no striking on the ground, no elbows or knees, etc.

                      Judo was "designed" to be physical education, or at least that is what came to dominate it over time, and sport after WW2, although there were plenty of judo contests before then.

                      The modern versions came from somewhere. Besides, weeabooing apparently is great fun !
                      Falling for Judo since 1980

                      "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

                      "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

                      "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

                      Comment


                        #26
                        This has a bit to do with a topic that has been of interest to me. In the UK JJJ seems to be mosty influenced by the WJJF, which I gathered from Bullshido is shite from a made up syllabus from Robert Clarke with a dodgy 'Juko-ryu' lineage that's not Koryu. I'm interested in the history because I occasionally train in a JJJ style called 'Tai Jutsu,'(non booj)

                        An older poster by the user name Bran Lydster made a few posts about it. Basically it's his same style further developed by a man Jack McKeown, a Judoka&boxer who added elements of Muay Thai for practicality. The same style his student from here Billy Murray, who went onto being a 4 time world kickboxing champ in. Thing is though, at one stage Jack and Robert Clarke were affiliated, so I've no clue how much of that Juko-ryu has to do with my lineage. Bran Lydster (Brian) taught two of my former MMA coaches, and before MMA 'Northern Ireland Tai Jutsu' was basically the closest thing resembling it. Many brought up in it now also do MMA, BJJ, and Muay Thai, but I at least think it is a good self defense style that has a traditional element as well. If anyone knows more I'd apreciate the knowledge as I'd like to know if it has any legit Koyru affiliation at all, or some made up British hybrid.

                        There's also a style called Taijutsu Kai JJ that started some of the early JJ Kumites in the UK fighters like Joseph Duffy and John Kavanagh were involved in . Those guys were some of the 1st from here to seek out BJJ as well. I think they're Koyru, but I'm still trying to research when I can.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by Holy Moment View Post
                          This is exactly karate + judo. When you google point karate plus judo this video comes up...

                          Okay maybe not, but it should!

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by BJMills View Post
                            This is exactly karate + judo. When you google point karate plus judo this video comes up...

                            Okay maybe not, but it should!
                            So, decent takedowns and grappling, plus crappy striking. I mean, the idea is sound, but if only there were a way to combine decent takedowns and grappling with decent striking. Oh, wait...
                            "Systema, which means, 'the system'..."

                            Originally posted by strikistanian
                            DROP SEIONAGI MOTHERFUCKER! Except I don't know Judo, so it doesn't work, and he takes my back.
                            Originally posted by Devil
                            Why is it so goddamn hard to find a video of it? I've seen videos I'm pretty sure are alien spacecraft. But still no good Krav.
                            Originally posted by Plasma
                            At the point, I must act! You see my rashguard saids "Jiu Jitsu vs The World" and "The World" was standing in front me teaching Anti-Grappling in a school I help run.
                            Originally posted by SoulMechanic
                            Thank you, not dying really rewarding in more ways than I can express.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by ermghoti View Post
                              So, decent takedowns and grappling, plus crappy striking. I mean, the idea is sound, but if only there were a way to combine decent takedowns and grappling with decent striking. Oh, wait...
                              PitFighting.
                              Dan Severn loves raping people.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by ermghoti View Post
                                So, decent takedowns and grappling, plus crappy striking. I mean, the idea is sound, but if only there were a way to combine decent takedowns and grappling with decent striking. Oh, wait...
                                I don't disagree with you but, you know, if you're a hobbiest who likes competing but doesn't have the time or desire to put yourself through the rigors of mma training... It's all good.

                                Probably a decent way to keep in shape and have fun without being too serious.

                                Better than sitting on a couch eating Doritos.

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