Five Hard Truths about Martial Arts that you don’t want to believe.

[BackFistMonkey]

Yosuke,
I cant think of any arts that teach 2+on1 . I would think to minimize damage to the uke or the victim I would assume one would draw from BJJ, Judo and JJJ. All the fun compliiance techniques I have encountered come from those roots.

Japanese teaches in some schools practice swarming and using polearms to pin and restrain armed and unarmed assailants

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUkA8BlfSNY.

DdlR posted a thread about here http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=97583

[Yosuke]

Yeah, law enforcement riot snatch squads (though some beating is often involved). Prison officers removing unruly prisoners from their cells is another. In days past they would charge into the cell using a mattress to pin them to the wall until they could grab a limb each. Training progressed to perspex riot shields and techniques now often included pain compliance holds. In all those cases equipment was involved though. Judging by the police arrest videos online, everyone just kind of piles on...

I imagine doormen or bodyguards might receive some many on one style training which doesn't use weapons or equipment.

Hopefully someone could provide a video for us. Seriously,with all the guys asking about how to defeat multiple attackers (the only real solution is to either fight until you can escape,or inflict serious injury on them),almost no one is really asking about how to safely subdue someone. You can much more easily justify you and your friends having to subdue a potentially dangerous guy than if you decided to break him. (that's not to say that there isn't a time and place for that,but if you have reliable friends,you have a better chance of avoiding resorting to more dangerous force.)

[Yosuke]

Yosuke,
I cant think of any arts that teach 2+on1 . I would think to minimize damage to the uke or the victim I would assume one would draw from BJJ, Judo and JJJ. All the fun compliiance techniques I have encountered come from those roots.

Japanese teaches in some schools practice swarming and using polearms to pin and restrain armed and unarmed assailants

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUkA8BlfSNY.

DdlR posted a thread about here http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=97583

I can see how that could work,it would seem to be good for subduing an unarmed guy. but if you're dealing with an armed guy,especially if he's enraged,Its probably time to resort to lethal force as the chances of either you or your allies getting seriously injured is too great. (especially if you and your friends are just civilians and thus,not really your job to handle armed criminals. that's assuming you can't get away for some reason)
http://bluelivesmatter.blue/video-po...ding-suspects/

Still,lets wait for someone else to chime in on this matter. I'm just thinking of subduing a single unarmed man. Expecting civilians to still play nice with someone armed is very unreasonable if you ask me.

[submessenger]

Seriously,with all the guys asking about how to defeat multiple attackers (the only real solution is to either fight until you can escape,or inflict serious injury on them)

For that matter, and this is only slightly tongue-in-cheek, where are all the arts that will train you to be a part of a team of multiple attackers?

(edit) I'm sometimes compromised by the fact that I don't read every single post. Good question:

Out of curiosity,is there any system that you know of that actually teaches how to most efficiently overwhelm someone USING superior numbers?

[ermghoti]

Out of curiosity,is there any system that you know of that actually teaches how to most efficiently overwhelm someone USING superior numbers? (you are the one with the numbers advantage) I think only LEO's,SWAT teams,and Military are taught this,but there has to be a genuine video out there that gets into this.

Arts for civilians, I'm drawing a blank. It seems to be more of an on-the-job training thing, as others have observed. That does make sense, since it takes a lot less time and subtlety to learn to gang up on a guy, and the application would be even more rare that one-on-one fighting, given that you'd have to be in the company of other people trained in the same techniques, and that optimally, each attacker should have a role. Barring firearms, I'd think three healthy adults that each have assignments, training, and no LEO-type proscription against techniques would readily stop any single opponent after maybe six months of classes. But, again, how do you market such a system? What would the public/law enforcement perception be of the school?

[Michael Tzadok]

I think you misunderstood my comment,but I can see why. I'll edit my post. The question isn't about how to handle multiple attackers,but how to most efficiently take out a threat when YOU have the numbers advantage,while minimizing everyone's injuries(including the guy being ganged up on.)

For civilians no. The biggest reason is, it has to be a coordinated attack. SWAT teams, military assualt teams, even police will train this, but it has to be done with their respective team/partner, because of the coordination thing. Lack of coordination(and also effective communication) is what gives a trained fighter a chance to win his way free or even possibly prevail in a multi-assailant attack. So groups that want to minimize casualties train for that level of coordination.

Is that level realistically available to a civilian... well there are people that do it for civilians, but you should honestly see that as larping with guns. If you are a hardcore survivalist, or convinced that a home invasion is imminent, I have heard of domestic partner teams getting that sort of training, but bear in mind it is a degradable skill set so you would have to practice often and frequently. Training with a bunch of buddies that may or may not be there just isn't practical, and like I said is more about larping with guns.

[Michael Tzadok]

Arts for civilians, I'm drawing a blank. It seems to be more of an on-the-job training thing, as others have observed. That does make sense, since it takes a lot less time and subtlety to learn to gang up on a guy, and the application would be even more rare that one-on-one fighting, given that you'd have to be in the company of other people trained in the same techniques, and that optimally, each attacker should have a role. Barring firearms, I'd think three healthy adults that each have assignments, training, and no LEO-type proscription against techniques would readily stop any single opponent after maybe six months of classes. But, again, how do you market such a system? What would the public/law enforcement perception be of the school?

Nah, you would need to teach a minimum of four. One tank, one healer, and two DPS.

[ermghoti]

Nah, you would need to teach a minimum of four. One tank, one healer, and two DPS.

And one LEEEEEEEERRRROOOOY JEEEEEEENNNKIIIIIIINNNNNSSSSSS.

[PDA]

What the fuck?1 Ninjutsu and Wing Chun SUCK, they don't have spaaring!

That was too obvious us wasn't it

[Yosuke]

For civilians no. The biggest reason is, it has to be a coordinated attack. SWAT teams, military assualt teams, even police will train this, but it has to be done with their respective team/partner, because of the coordination thing. Lack of coordination(and also effective communication) is what gives a trained fighter a chance to win his way free or even possibly prevail in a multi-assailant attack. So groups that want to minimize casualties train for that level of coordination.

Is that level realistically available to a civilian... well there are people that do it for civilians, but you should honestly see that as larping with guns. If you are a hardcore survivalist, or convinced that a home invasion is imminent, I have heard of domestic partner teams getting that sort of training, but bear in mind it is a degradable skill set so you would have to practice often and frequently. Training with a bunch of buddies that may or may not be there just isn't practical, and like I said is more about larping with guns.

Honestly,I think more Martial arts schools need to incorporate this kind of training in addition to the standard one-on-one regime. After all,one of the most common motivations for getting into Martial arts is to protect your family. Well,why not have your family learn physical teamwork so if danger does come,they are more likely to do what is needed to be done. Of course,its no replacement to individual training and its just a supplement. I'll look more into this thing at a later time.

This talk actually reminds me of a time when my cousin bragged to me that if he ever got into it with a knife attacker,he and his friends would just gang up on the guy. fast forward a few years later,when it actually did happen. He and his friend got mugged by some bum with a knife or whatever kind of edged weapon,he was being mugged for a chocolate drink he was holding(I found it strange to mug someone over a small drink,but some people are desperate I suppose...or just stupid)and instead actually just giving it to him(that drink is incredibly common and cheap in my area),he did something really stupid. he decided to spill the drink on the floor,and predictably it enraged the guy. Wanna know what his friend did? He bailed on him,much to his surprise/shock. He ended up running too and thankfully he got away unscathed(although if I had to guess,it was probably because the bum didn't really want to hurt him,he just wanted the drink) I didn't see the event myself but my grandma told me the story and my cousin confirmed it.

My cousin has never been in a serious one-on-one fight,but he says some of the dumbest shit about fighting. I'm happy he learned a good lesson without paying for it in blood,but its pretty nasty to just abandon a friend like that. If you're gonna run,at least grab your friend by the arm and take him with you(if he stubbornly insist on staying after you try,and you don't particularly care much for the guy,then ok. you may leave him to his foolishness)

[Michael Tzadok]

Honestly,I think more Martial arts schools need to incorporate this kind of training in addition to the standard one-on-one regime. After all,one of the most common motivations for getting into Martial arts is to protect your family. Well,why not have your family learn physical teamwork so if danger does come,they are more likely to do what is needed to be done. Of course,its no replacement to individual training and its just a supplement. I'll look more into this thing at a later time.

This talk actually reminds me of a time when my cousin bragged to me that if he ever got into it with a knife attacker,he and his friends would just gang up on the guy. fast forward a few years later,when it actually did happen. He and his friend got mugged by some bum with a knife or whatever kind of edged weapon,he was being mugged for a chocolate drink he was holding(I found it strange to mug someone over a small drink,but some people are desperate I suppose...or just stupid)and instead actually just giving it to him(that drink is incredibly common and cheap in my area),he did something really stupid. he decided to spill the drink on the floor,and predictably it enraged the guy. Wanna know what his friend did? He bailed on him,much to his surprise/shock. He ended up running too and thankfully he got away unscathed(although if I had to guess,it was probably because the bum didn't really want to hurt him,he just wanted the drink) I didn't see the event myself but my grandma told me the story and my cousin confirmed it.

My cousin has never been in a serious one-on-one fight,but he says some of the dumbest shit about fighting. I'm happy he learned a good lesson without paying for it in blood,but its pretty nasty to just abandon a friend like that. If you're gonna run,at least grab your friend by the arm and take him with you(if he stubbornly insist on staying after you try,and you don't particularly care much for the guy,then ok. you may leave him to his foolishness)

Do I want to be able to protect my family? Yes. To me that also means I don't want my children throwing themselves into danger. In fact it means, that if stuff does go down, I want their primary reaction to be to beat feet and get help. I have no problem interposing my body between danger and my children. I have a serious problem with my children interposing their bodies between danger and me. The same with my wife.

I know martial art schools that will teach this stuff to various Mil/LEO/EP types, but I don't know any that will regularly teach it to civilians. Aside from it simply not being practical for the vast majority of people and situations, the liabilities are too high. Martial Art schools are typically able to avoid litigation by being the ones teaching "self-defense". When you teach multiple attack, you are by far no longer in the defense category, you are literally training people to go on the attack against another individual, thus opening you up to all kinds of litigation.

In regards to your cousins story... I'm glad to see that his friend had sense, maybe if he keeps hanging out with folks like that he'll catch some common sense himself. So let's review, guy with edged weapon comes up and says your life or your chocolate beverage. Your cousin decides that his pride and his chocolate beverage are worth risking the lives of him and his friend. I don't really think it was nasty of your cousin's friend to bolt. It was nasty of your cousin to try to escalate the situation into an actual fight. Had a friend that thought me and my ROSS training partner would help him jump a guy that he picked a fight with. We just sat there and let him catch a beating(though he did stop the guy once he had clearly one the fight). Simple moral of this story, don't let your mouth write checks that your ass can't cash and don't write checks on someone else's ass.

[BKR]

The synergy you mention I believe comes with time and continual practice, correct?

Correct, I don't know of any other solution, in the end. Results will vary according to the individual, even with the best possible combination of training and genetics.

[BKR]

Do I want to be able to protect my family? Yes. To me that also means I don't want my children throwing themselves into danger. In fact it means, that if stuff does go down, I want their primary reaction to be to beat feet and get help. I have no problem interposing my body between danger and my children. I have a serious problem with my children interposing their bodies between danger and me. The same with my wife.

I know martial art schools that will teach this stuff to various Mil/LEO/EP types, but I don't know any that will regularly teach it to civilians. Aside from it simply not being practical for the vast majority of people and situations, the liabilities are too high. Martial Art schools are typically able to avoid litigation by being the ones teaching "self-defense". When you teach multiple attack, you are by far no longer in the defense category, you are literally training people to go on the attack against another individual, thus opening you up to all kinds of litigation.

In regards to your cousins story... I'm glad to see that his friend had sense, maybe if he keeps hanging out with folks like that he'll catch some common sense himself. So let's review, guy with edged weapon comes up and says your life or your chocolate beverage. Your cousin decides that his pride and his chocolate beverage are worth risking the lives of him and his friend. I don't really think it was nasty of your cousin's friend to bolt. It was nasty of your cousin to try to escalate the situation into an actual fight. Had a friend that thought me and my ROSS training partner would help him jump a guy that he picked a fight with. We just sat there and let him catch a beating(though he did stop the guy once he had clearly one the fight). Simple moral of this story, don't let your mouth write checks that your ass can't cash and don't write checks on someone else's ass.

This is a bit off topic, but the coordination and training together thing brought to mind something else.

A lot of folks think that if the military (or highly trained LEO) goes after them (and I'm talking about in the USA) for some reason, they will be able to prevail...because you know, we have ARs and some training.

Although I admire the sentiment of resisting tyranny with force if need be, I'm not under any illusions that such a "stand" would be successful, especially in the long run, for the reasons you outlined: training in coordinated attacks requires a LOT of time and practice, and is perishable. Of course, any training is perishable, something that many if not most, teachers of self defense and RBSD seem to either not know, forget, or conveniently ignore in order to make money.

[Mandem]

Really? Do you suppose that doing the same sort of free-flowing Kata work in Karate would help them with sparring?
http://boxingcombinations.blogspot.c...binations.html
Those are just patterns. Sure you are mixing up the different patterns on the fly but usually why you are shadow boxing you will throw one of those 16 patterns followed up by another then another. You think chaining together different Katas freeform makes things different? It's still just throwing punches in the air at an imaginary opponent. It still lacks aliveness.
Sure I have a broader sense of what I will call a "Kata".
Any sort of "dead" pattern, even if that pattern is being made up on the fly.
This includes shrimping across the mat.
Drilling a spinning armbar with a non-resisting opponent.
Throwing punches at the air in combinations based on solely what is going through your mind.
Hitting pads and bag work can even be a Kata if there is no aliveness in it.
If you do not have any sort of input that requires you to change up your timing, distance or make changes as you move through a technique it is Kata.
Given most drilling is dead I will call most "drilling" a "kata" The point of these things is to learn the movements.

There's still a difference between moving around and throwing an admittedly limited variety of sensible punch combos and doing rigid cross block-back fist-quarter turn-snap kick-victory dance routines over and over. Shadow boxing drills combos and punches into your head in a way that is much more similar to how you actually use them, I.e. Quick improvised combos followed by head movement/footwork

[Yosuke]

This is a bit off topic, but the coordination and training together thing brought to mind something else.

A lot of folks think that if the military (or highly trained LEO) goes after them (and I'm talking about in the USA) for some reason, they will be able to prevail...because you know, we have ARs and some training.

Although I admire the sentiment of resisting tyranny with force if need be, I'm not under any illusions that such a "stand" would be successful, especially in the long run, for the reasons you outlined: training in coordinated attacks requires a LOT of time and practice, and is perishable. Of course, any training is perishable, something that many if not most, teachers of self defense and RBSD seem to either not know, forget, or conveniently ignore in order to make money.

Moving away from teamwork training,I do genuinely wonder if you must train for the long term if all you care about is self-defense and you don't really have a passion for martial arts. I believe there are several stories out there of people with limited training successfully defending themselves/winning a fight. In particular,the Gracie Academy has several such stories:
http://www.gracieacademy.com/news/st...ight-story.asp
http://www.gracieacademy.com/news/gr...the-street.asp
(You can navigate the site for more but here's what I found now. There's also the Gracie bully-proof stories if its of any interest,lol)

I would think that 1-2 years of proper full-contact martial arts training will make most average joes competent enough to deal with most low-level violence they'll run into for a lifetime,but I can't say for sure. I guess it completely depends on the individual.