Five Hard Truths about Martial Arts that you don’t want to believe.

[Ridgway]

I think that in training be it standing or floor work. There should be resistance other wise you don't really know if it's working. Your technique can be excellent. But bad one someone is resisting. I find this with clubs that don't use resistance in training.

[BKR]

Lately Im finding the biggest benefit I'm having in competition and training is the fact Im the only one in my karate dojo besides my sensei doing any kind of resistance training or weight lifting at all. I've started going down a powerlifting route and its benefitting my judo massively. In fact these days Im actually dialing back my time on the matt by one day (focusing on knockdown training and judo) and using that extra day to lift heavier and still get in recovery.

The correct formula is: be as strong and fit as possible, and have the best "technique" possible. Technique covers a lot of ground...

Getting as strong and fit as possible is the easier part, but the synergy between the two is undeniable.

[BKR]

to be utterly fair on this, I train both Judo and Goju Ryu Karate, and I've found a few bunkai that bare similarity (but not identical) to some judo applications at a basic level. I have no knowledge of Shotokan's but i know theres a rep for a lot of karate guys who dont know the kata applications at all, which I think is BS and a sign of a poorly taught individual or an even poorer teacher before them. Whats the point in kata if you dont learn to apply the techniques?

That said, I've read some sources claiming a lot of older masters did apparently go out and cross training. Heck Okinawa has it's own version of Sumo you can still see today, so the fact an Okinawan art has lost its grappling elements that were part of its culture I find mind-boggling. Im finding the Judo is definitely giving me an edge when it comes to getting those applications to work but a solely striking guy when faced with a grappler, if they try those applications without any proper training, is going to get shat on.

Those lovely and charming Japanese destroyed Okinawan culture quite deliberately...

I was around doing Judo at Tulane University when I first came across the "bunkai" stuff related to grappling. I was acquainted with the instructors at the "Martial Arts" club at the university, as I was part of and in fact running the Judo club at the time. I think the "bunkai" thing was fairly new at that point and was being pushed by none other than Mr. Pressure Point himself...The karate guys in the MA club (it had TKD, "karate", and some rudimentary Kali/Escrima stuff going on at the time) had gone to a seminar on bunkai (as well as all the pressure point fighting stuff) and were all about that stuff.

I found the grappling stuff fairly interesting, but it was mostly standing armlocks and wristlocks in the end. My POV was just get close and then throw the guy with whatever instead of bothering trying to grab a limb and bend it the wrong way. Do the bending once they are stunned and on the ground, or even better, just kick the guy in the head or stomp him...

[BKR]

Like you said, they're going to get shat on.

I learned the bunkai when I was training karate. And yes, technically some of them have a resemblance to actual grappling techniques. But you can practice those techniques in that method until monkeys fly out of your butthole and you're never going to be able to grapple.

It is for similar reason that I get irritated by Judo guys who like to insult BJJ with the whole "Basically Just Judo" shit. Yeah, all those BJJ techniques can be found in some old Judo book somewhere but the skill to actually apply a lot of those techniques effectively has become lost to the vast majority of Judo practitioners because they've been de-emphasized or trained improperly.

Judo practitioners who can't pass the guard for shit and want to talk about "Basically Just Judo" are fucking retards.

Quoted for truth. I outlined my experience with the bunkai stuff in a previous post. It was an ongoing thing, as I was cross training with the MA club at Tulane. I did the "karate" and TKD and some of the Philippine stuff as well. The TKD instructor was actually a decent fighter standing up, and we did pretty much full contact sparring.

Anyway, there are still a shit-ton of those "basically just Judo guys around", and they amuse me immensely, although it's a sad sort of amusement. I actually know some of them (many hang out on a FB group I frequent at times).

However, there are a lot of judo guys who have seen the light and are doing both BJJ and Judo, and see the "holes" in Judo.

Like I've written before, it's how to get to the point of the pin or sub that matters most, same with throwing...and BJJ excels at that on the ground. Some judoka excel at it standing, but many still don't get that fundamental point.

[BKR]

Bunkai are cool and all but unless you are actually practising X rather than just picturing "I could have done X here", it's useless.

Judo kata are useful because when you delete the etiquette they boil down to practising throws as perfectly as possible on a moving opponent. They become especially useful if you take the view that each throw must be real, i.e. uke doesn't try to help other than by doing his half correctly.

[BKR]

This is how I feel, yes theres Judo in BJJ and BJJ in Judo, but they focus very strongly on different aspects of those ideas and theres benefit to learning both. As for the passing guard comment, depends on the club. Mine has a lot of groundwork from standing because we dont just train for competition Ippon-based wins but continuing the fight to the floor, thats not to say I would beat a BJJ guy or even insinuate I will, but its better than nothing. Anyone whose ignoring the ground phase of grappling has missed something very important

Go to a good BJJ school and train...there will be a huge difference in what people do and can do on the ground versus the vast majority of Judo schools.

[Dork Angel]

Interesting discussion considering everyone seems to have a different idea of what kata is. Personally I consider any technique practised against an imaginary opponent to be a form of kata, whether that's traditional karate, shadow boxing, rolling around on the ground or doing it to music (*cough* Body Combat *cough*).

It can be used as a warm-up, an exercise form, a learning tool, a way to practise on your own or a way to record techniques. It can also be pointless. For example, my old Ju-Jitsu club used to have a couple of kata's. You did them as part of your grading to demonstrate different blocks. There was no movement, no counter-striking, just a series of blocks using your arms. Personally I think it was there because they felt Martial Arts had to have a kata in it somewhere. The Aikido club on the other hand had a kata as part off their warm-up which included arm movements along with foot movements and pivots. This was much more practical and useful as every move in their syllabus had a basis in the kata. I've watched a Judo guy warming up before a mma style match practising footwork drills and throw wind ups on his own before his fight and then nailing the guy he was fighting with the throw he was practising. I also think there's a definite blurring of the line between drills and kata so I would consider pad work where you're learning combinations to be a type of kata.

So in my opinion it can be a good training tool, but if it's all you do it loses most of it's benefits. I think the problem is that some arts have elevated Kata to mystical status and removed the follow-up work that made it useful. Unless you progress from imaginary to real opponents and made up to actual moving targets you're like someone who practices drawing beautiful letters. You might even be able to copy some words, but you'll never learn how to write a story.

[DCS]

Interesting discussion considering everyone seems to have a different idea of what kata is.

Mostly because kata means different things depending on the art being practised.

[Ridgway]

Japanese kata use was minimal in the 1800's . It wasn't till the 1950's that it came to be used more often until 2010 . When it hit a peek and now is on the decline again.

[ksennin]

Also, keep in mind the amount of time it takes to perfect a single kata, not even to the standard in the video, but just to your personal standard of perfection. Now, consider the fact that the path to black belt in virtually every system of karate consists of a shit ton of these kata.

Think about how much time is spent on memorizing all those movements and patterns. To what end? So you can become really good at repeating series of movements that are only loosely related to fighting? It's terribly inefficient. It's terrible training if your goal is to produce a fighter instead of a mime.

Nowadays, the goal of training kata is to do kata well. It has becomes a recursive loop, the means became the end, because as means to other ends: fighting ability, it was no great shakes anyway.

Karate kata has become its own type of choreographed gymnastics routines that uses martial arts moves adapted into its own insular context. Something as simple as a wrist grab has become an elaborate twisting motion for showmanship and not application.

Competition can involve demonstration of the bunkai, or practical application of the kata, and that involves stiffly choreographed partnered motions that are even more stylized, formalized and unrealistic. I hate having to learn formalized bunkai when I personally know from my crosstraining much more practical versions of all the "defenses". BUnkai actually forces me to repress my trained defense reactions in order to go for the absurd formal movements instead.

I am honestly thinking of someday opening my own karate school and call it the NO KATA school.

[DCS]

Japanese kata use was minimal in the 1800's . It wasn't till the 1950's that it came to be used more often until 2010 . When it hit a peek and now is on the decline again.

Kata has been the main training method in japanese classical arts since ever and until the late 19 century.

[Ridgway]

Japanese kata use was minimal in the 1800's . It wasn't till the 1950's that it came to be used more often until 2010 . When it hit a peek and now is on the decline again.

I think this was due to western influence I may be wrong.
It is the same with the belt system. It only started in the 1900's

[ksennin]

Like you said, they're going to get shat on.

I learned the bunkai when I was training karate. And yes, technically some of them have a resemblance to actual grappling techniques. But you can practice those techniques in that method until monkeys fly out of your butthole and you're never going to be able to grapple.

Just like a lot of the air punching people who pride themselves on how loud their stiff gi snaps with each punch end up hurting their wrists when actually punching a heavy bag or makiwara.

I once saw a guy who did a lot of stick twirling and asked him to do basic staff drills with me, and he quit after a few solid contacts because his wrists hurt. So the cheerleader twirling did not translate well to paired drills, much less fighting.

[Ridgway]

Kata has been the main training method in japanese classical arts since ever and until the late 19 century.

I'm not saying that it isn't. I was saying that it was used more from the 1950' until 2010

[ksennin]

The point is that shadow boxing and shrimping have a practical use while many aspects of karate kata are totally worthless.

I sometimes think many elements are worse than worthless, being instead damaging by teaching completely wrong techniques or deluded strategies. So they have negative worth.

For example, in all my decades of karate, training under well-regarded teachers and being part of the national competition team, I have yet to ever see any fighter use successfully a yoko-uke block against a punch. Even in basic drills or bunkai, when you know what punch is coming and you have all the forewarning needed, the damn thing is uncomfortable to implement and being an a$$h*le I make a point of landing the punches on people despite their trying to use it. I tend to think the whole move is not really a block at all but a misremembered/misapplied arm twist to release a wrist grab or other basic initial arm hold. So all the damn people learning that in drills and kata are memorizing something that not only does not work, but actually moves the arm away from covering yourself, so it is worse than huddling in fear.