Five Hard Truths about Martial Arts that you don’t want to believe.

[Devil]

Really? Do you suppose that doing the same sort of free-flowing Kata work in Karate would help them with sparring?
http://boxingcombinations.blogspot.c...binations.html
Those are just patterns. Sure you are mixing up the different patterns on the fly but usually why you are shadow boxing you will throw one of those 16 patterns followed up by another then another. You think chaining together different Katas freeform makes things different? It's still just throwing punches in the air at an imaginary opponent. It still lacks aliveness.
Sure I have a broader sense of what I will call a "Kata".
Any sort of "dead" pattern, even if that pattern is being made up on the fly.
This includes shrimping across the mat.
Drilling a spinning armbar with a non-resisting opponent.
Throwing punches at the air in combinations based on solely what is going through your mind.
Hitting pads and bag work can even be a Kata if there is no aliveness in it.
If you do not have any sort of input that requires you to change up your timing, distance or make changes as you move through a technique it is Kata.
Given most drilling is dead I will call most "drilling" a "kata" The point of these things is to learn the movements.

You're being silly. It is perfectly reasonable to practice techniques alone for a variety of reasons. The problem is when you're practicing techniques that aren't useful, which is the issue with traditional kata.

Sparring is always king, but if karate practitioners spent their kata time practicing basic punches and kicks instead of memorizing choreographed interpretative dance routines that are comprised of 30% useful technique, they'd be much better off.

[BackFistMonkey]

Techniques that can be executed only by your little ole lonesome against air. Kata shows no mastery and no understanding of technique nor application of technique.

I don't train on my own with Kate.

I am assuming you meant kata here, but did not address the topic of kata not truly showing any mastery or understanding of application. Do you know why I have this position on the topic?

You think you should wait until your or your family's life is in danger to find out if your air punching and compliant training is going to work?
I should hope you see the problems with that train of thought.

Reading and understanding a situation. Knowing when to fight and when not to fight

Again you are not addressing the question. Are you willing to wait until you or your family's life is on the line to figure out if your training is effective?

If it doesn't what were the results on the mean streets?
Death? Maybe severe injury because you fought back when you should have just tossed your wallet or let those guys call you a pussy,

Again reading and understanding a situation. Knowing when to fight and when not to fight

That has nothing to do with the discussion. Yeah no shit, avoid physical conflict when possible but that isn't what you were saying if you read your words but that is for a different discussion.
The question was are you willing to tell people to have faith in their training without testing it? That is what you were suggesting and what spawned my request for more information.

[kimjonghng]

Lately Im finding the biggest benefit I'm having in competition and training is the fact Im the only one in my karate dojo besides my sensei doing any kind of resistance training or weight lifting at all. I've started going down a powerlifting route and its benefitting my judo massively. In fact these days Im actually dialing back my time on the matt by one day (focusing on knockdown training and judo) and using that extra day to lift heavier and still get in recovery.

[Devil]

The Meaning of Kata-seishin shotokan


There are three “k”s in Karate - kihon, kata and kumite, or four if you count the word karate! Kihon means basics, Kata means forms and Kumite means partner work or sparring. This article deals with Kata.

In Shotokan Karate there are 26 official kata - 5 basic kata, 6 intermediate kata and 15 advanced kata. It takes many years to learn all of them let alone to master them all. There is a Japanese saying that goes “Hito kata, san-nen” - “One kata, three years” meaning that mastery of each kata takes three years of practice. This phrase is very difficult for a beginner to understand because most beginners to Karate think they know Heian Shodan (the first kata) after about 3 months of practice, some even sooner. What they mean of course is that they can do the moves in the right order and make it look like they know something. The truth of the matter is that they managed to get through a set sequence or pattern of moves that really has little bearing on their real knowledge of Karate. It probably shows their memory ability and coordination skills more than anything else.

I’m sorry because I don’t want to burst any bubbles or detract from the sense of satisfaction of remembering the first kata because that is truly an achievement, but what I do want to do is to explain what true mastery of a kata really means and that knowing really implies understanding and doing.

To be able to replicate the moves of a kata without mistake is the first step in learning a kata. You start by learning direction, followed by left and right, then technique, then strength, power, speed and focus and finally rhythm and honest self-expression.

If you have got this far in terms of your overall ability to perform a kata competently then you are probably a black belt or close to that rank.

However to attain true kata mastery it is necessary to delve deeper, beyond the aesthetically pleasing moves to the bunkai (application).

The bunkai of kata teaches us the true meaning and relevance of kata as a whole. As stated bunkai means application, more specifically how can I use these moves that I am practicing to devastating effect against an opponent.

When you are able to take the moves of a kata out of the context of the kata in which you learned the moves and apply them to various combat situations effectively then you can begin to claim that you know the kata. This is the real meaning of kata and this is why you should always practice kata diligently.

Oh yes. The bunkai. Of course.

You mean where all the grappling techniques are revealed within the kata? El. Oh. El. The only people who think there is anything useful or effective or efficient about that are people who are utterly clueless about what it takes to actually be a competent grappler.

[kimjonghng]

Oh yes. The bunkai. Of course.

You mean where all the grappling techniques are revealed within the kata? El. Oh. El. The only people who think there is anything useful or effective or efficient about that are people who are utterly clueless about what it takes to actually be a competent grappler.

to be utterly fair on this, I train both Judo and Goju Ryu Karate, and I've found a few bunkai that bare similarity (but not identical) to some judo applications at a basic level. I have no knowledge of Shotokan's but i know theres a rep for a lot of karate guys who dont know the kata applications at all, which I think is BS and a sign of a poorly taught individual or an even poorer teacher before them. Whats the point in kata if you dont learn to apply the techniques?

That said, I've read some sources claiming a lot of older masters did apparently go out and cross training. Heck Okinawa has it's own version of Sumo you can still see today, so the fact an Okinawan art has lost its grappling elements that were part of its culture I find mind-boggling. Im finding the Judo is definitely giving me an edge when it comes to getting those applications to work but a solely striking guy when faced with a grappler, if they try those applications without any proper training, is going to get shat on.

[Devil]

to be utterly fair on this, I train both Judo and Goju Ryu Karate, and I've found a few bunkai that bare similarity (but not identical) to some judo applications at a basic level. I have no knowledge of Shotokan's but i know theres a rep for a lot of karate guys who dont know the kata applications at all, which I think is BS and a sign of a poorly taught individual or an even poorer teacher before them. Whats the point in kata if you dont learn to apply the techniques?

That said, I've read some sources claiming a lot of older masters did apparently go out and cross training. Heck Okinawa has it's own version of Sumo you can still see today, so the fact an Okinawan art has lost its grappling elements that were part of its culture I find mind-boggling. Im finding the Judo is definitely giving me an edge when it comes to getting those applications to work but a solely striking guy when faced with a grappler, if they try those applications without any proper training, is going to get shat on.

Like you said, they're going to get shat on.

I learned the bunkai when I was training karate. And yes, technically some of them have a resemblance to actual grappling techniques. But you can practice those techniques in that method until monkeys fly out of your butthole and you're never going to be able to grapple.

It is for similar reason that I get irritated by Judo guys who like to insult BJJ with the whole "Basically Just Judo" shit. Yeah, all those BJJ techniques can be found in some old Judo book somewhere but the skill to actually apply a lot of those techniques effectively has become lost to the vast majority of Judo practitioners because they've been de-emphasized or trained improperly.

Judo practitioners who can't pass the guard for shit and want to talk about "Basically Just Judo" are fucking retards.

[NeilG]

Bunkai are cool and all but unless you are actually practising X rather than just picturing "I could have done X here", it's useless.

Judo kata are useful because when you delete the etiquette they boil down to practising throws as perfectly as possible on a moving opponent. They become especially useful if you take the view that each throw must be real, i.e. uke doesn't try to help other than by doing his half correctly.

[submessenger]

Kata are a method to communicate principles or fundamentals. They have great value in preserving and communicating the basics of the style, and great value in developing what we hate to call "muscle memory." But, if you're not using those fundamentals, that muscle memory, in alive sparring, they are worthless. That is the essence of bunkai. But, a lot of bunkai, these days, is bunk. Schools with instructors that don't understand the meaning of bunkai having students just rewrite the kata, and grading them for it.

Taking it a bit deeper. Kata are like the dictionary of a style. Some people memorize the dictionary. Others take the words they like from that dictionary and use them in conversation or debate, to communicate their own ideas. The former are XMA dancers, the latter are martial artists.

In an older thread about kata, Omega said something along the lines of the warmups we do - shrimping, front and back rolls, armbar-triangle-armbar flows, bridging drills, etc. - those are actually kata. Probably one of the smartest posts ever, on these forums. Nobody in those arts (edit: I mean specifically BJJ or SAMBO) is going to get graded on their ability to shrimp. They will get graded on their ability to use those motions against a resisting opponent, initially, and later on their ability to adapt those motions to different situations.

So, what am I saying here? I'm asking myself the same question. I guess what I'm saying is that there are weaboos and there are fighters. Kata and Bunkai and Budo and Kumite and all the other nifty-sounding words are used by wannabes to add false credibility to what they do; the principles those words represent are used by fighters. Choose which one you want to be, and train accordingly.

[Devil]

Yeah, "kata" is just a word. You can call shadow boxing kata and you can call shrimping kata if you want. The point is that shadow boxing and shrimping have a practical use while many aspects of karate kata are totally worthless.

[kimjonghng]

Like you said, they're going to get shat on.

I learned the bunkai when I was training karate. And yes, technically some of them have a resemblance to actual grappling techniques. But you can practice those techniques in that method until monkeys fly out of your butthole and you're never going to be able to grapple.

It is for similar reason that I get irritated by Judo guys who like to insult BJJ with the whole "Basically Just Judo" shit. Yeah, all those BJJ techniques can be found in some old Judo book somewhere but the skill to actually apply a lot of those techniques effectively has become lost to the vast majority of Judo practitioners because they've been de-emphasized or trained improperly.

Judo practitioners who can't pass the guard for shit and want to talk about "Basically Just Judo" are fucking retards.

This is how I feel, yes theres Judo in BJJ and BJJ in Judo, but they focus very strongly on different aspects of those ideas and theres benefit to learning both. As for the passing guard comment, depends on the club. Mine has a lot of groundwork from standing because we dont just train for competition Ippon-based wins but continuing the fight to the floor, thats not to say I would beat a BJJ guy or even insinuate I will, but its better than nothing. Anyone whose ignoring the ground phase of grappling has missed something very important

[Devil]

Here's what I mean.....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iiiznDpoapQ

This is a typical kata performed at a high level. It's beautiful. But as you watch, make a mental checklist of all the movements in this kata which are completely unrelated to any actual fighting technique, particularly any high percentage fighting technique.

Also, keep in mind the amount of time it takes to perfect a single kata, not even to the standard in the video, but just to your personal standard of perfection. Now, consider the fact that the path to black belt in virtually every system of karate consists of a shit ton of these kata.

Think about how much time is spent on memorizing all those movements and patterns. To what end? So you can become really good at repeating series of movements that are only loosely related to fighting? It's terribly inefficient. It's terrible training if your goal is to produce a fighter instead of a mime.

[Devil]

This is how I feel, yes theres Judo in BJJ and BJJ in Judo, but they focus very strongly on different aspects of those ideas and theres benefit to learning both. As for the passing guard comment, depends on the club. Mine has a lot of groundwork from standing because we dont just train for competition Ippon-based wins but continuing the fight to the floor, thats not to say I would beat a BJJ guy or even insinuate I will, but its better than nothing. Anyone whose ignoring the ground phase of grappling has missed something very important

Yes, it's better than nothing. It's not even bad in the grand scheme of things. Most judoka and BJJ practitioners who have spent any amount of time on the mat are going to have the tools to wreck untrained grapplers.

And I know that some clubs are better than others. But I also know that a lot of judo guys who say "But our club spends half their time on mat work" are doing shitty mat work. A lot of them suck because their instructors sucked and their instructors' instructors sucked at mat work. Some of the reasoning for that is exactly as I stated......de-emphasization and inefficient training practices that have persisted over long periods of time.

That's why it's not unusual to have BJJ blue belts who have been training for two years who can wreck Judo black belts who have been training mat work 50% of the time for ten years. You can train for a long time and train poorly.

I'm not just picking on Judo either. You see the same thing from a lot of BJJ guys who think they know about throwing or about wrestling because they "do throws" in their school.

I think the problem is less pronounced in BJJ and I think you have more BJJ schools producing guys who are good on their feet than Judo schools who are producing guys who are good on the ground. Nevertheless, the problem isn't unique to Judo.

[BKR]

Really? Do you suppose that doing the same sort of free-flowing Kata work in Karate would help them with sparring?
http://boxingcombinations.blogspot.c...binations.html
Those are just patterns. Sure you are mixing up the different patterns on the fly but usually why you are shadow boxing you will throw one of those 16 patterns followed up by another then another. You think chaining together different Katas freeform makes things different? It's still just throwing punches in the air at an imaginary opponent. It still lacks aliveness.
Sure I have a broader sense of what I will call a "Kata".
Any sort of "dead" pattern, even if that pattern is being made up on the fly.
This includes shrimping across the mat.
Drilling a spinning armbar with a non-resisting opponent.
Throwing punches at the air in combinations based on solely what is going through your mind.
Hitting pads and bag work can even be a Kata if there is no aliveness in it.
If you do not have any sort of input that requires you to change up your timing, distance or make changes as you move through a technique it is Kata.
Given most drilling is dead I will call most "drilling" a "kata" The point of these things is to learn the movements.

Not bad...

Kata means, essentially, "form". Which comes first, form or content ? Is form infinite, and if so, is content so too? Which came first, form or content?

STFU and train...

Kata is interesting...some types of extended drills I have made up have various branch points, where tori reacts to uke reacts to tori etc. Each drill is made up of other simpler drills. Uke will have a choice of reactions to select from, and tori won't know which specific one uke is going to do, but tori has to select a workable response. It's cooperative but not a totally closed type drill.

I think most kata that we see are pretty simple. They can also are also act as a mnemonic device, a way to physically remember important concepts or principles via workable technique.

It's like uchikomi, in a sense, has it's uses and place in training, if used correctly.

Shrimping across the mat is a sports specific warmup, as are a lot of solo exercises based on mimicking movements used in actual sparring or fighting.

The good thing about Judo kata is that we actually perform a technique with a training partner (other than the physical education one with it's air-punching and kicking... I think Kano was inspired by Funakoshi, maybe?). So when I do nage no kata, I'm actually throwing the person, for example.

[BKR]

Shu-ha-ri more or less...

[BKR]

Also, kata is some serious pussy shit.

Let's drill some ura nage together sometime. You get to be uke...