Five Hard Truths about Martial Arts that you don’t want to believe.

[Michael Tzadok]

Well in kendo we have plenty of paired drills and they are not considered kata. We also have a formalized set of drills used to teach people various techniques called bokuto ni yoru kendo kihon-waza keiko-ho, and to an outsider it may look like kata but it is not according to our definition. IMO a kata has to contain some portion of a fight and demonstrate some principles beyond the mere execution of technique.

I have got to find my video of Ryabko teaching kendo. I think you would enjoy it.

[BackFistMonkey]

Well in kendo we have plenty of paired drills and they are not considered kata. We also have a formalized set of drills used to teach people various techniques called bokuto ni yoru kendo kihon-waza keiko-ho, and to an outsider it may look like kata but it is not according to our definition. IMO a kata has to contain some portion of a fight and demonstrate some principles beyond the mere execution of technique.

Like I said my main issue is in the definition... which kinda ties into the Arts' training methodology in general. The styles which are traditionally and/or historically "live" seem to have a different agreement on what kata is. That definition seems to be much different than the definition used by "traditional" or noncompetitive martial art styles. The kata in TKD or Hapkido is a different animal than the kata I have seen in Judo.

[DCS]

I have got to find my video of Ryabko teaching kendo. I think you would enjoy it.

Please,, please, please...

[Michael Tzadok]

Please,, please, please...

Well to tide you over until I find the DVD here are a couple of ones that are more recent:

The one I'm looking for though shows him actually demonstrating blade work and how "easy" it is to defeat traditional kendo... Just need to find the DVD then rip the DVD then upload clip...

[DCS]

Ryakbo and Kono. This will be great.

I'll watch them later for now I have to go. Thanks.

[Ridgway]

Techniques that can be executed only by your little ole lonesome against air. Kata shows no mastery and no understanding of technique nor application of technique.

I don't train on my own with Kate.


You think you should wait until your or your family's life is in danger to find out if your air punching and compliant training is going to work?
I should hope you see the problems with that train of thought.

Reading and understanding a situation. Knowing when to fight and when not to fight


If it doesn't what were the results on the mean streets?
Death? Maybe severe injury because you fought back when you should have just tossed your wallet or let those guys call you a pussy,

Again reading and understanding a situation. Knowing when to fight and when not to fight

Which is why you should always be competing and testing and pushing yourself. So you not only know your limits but so you can reminded of this concept. No one who trains in a combat sport thinks they are unbeatable. Oh sure some may talk that good shit to stir people up and play the promotional games but real hubris usually comes from the arts which do not spar with heavy contact, compete, and/or train under restrictive and silly rule sets.

I agree.

Live sparring is an excellent training tool and you should keep pushing and testing yourself at every level.
The art of defence is not just fighting it's also knowing when to throw your wallet and be called a pussy.

Ps. Sorry about the quote box have not yet figured out how to separate the quote and my reply. I'm afraid I am not very good with IT.

[ermghoti]

Ps. Sorry about the quote box have not yet figured out how to separate the quote and my reply. I'm afraid I am not very good with IT.

Copy the QUOTE=username in front of, and the /QUOTE after the section you want to separate. Capitals don't matter, you do need the [ brackets. The numbers link back to the original post, you don't need them just to display text as a quote. Most forum codes can be inferred by fiddling with other people's quotes, and manipulating the text. Just check the results with the preview post button.

The art of defence is not just fighting it's also knowing when to throw your wallet and be called a pussy.

Pretty much everybody here would agree with this, but you'll get resistance if people think you're arguing a bad fighting technique is a good self-defense technique, or vice versa.

[Ridgway]

The Meaning of Kata-seishin shotokan


There are three “k”s in Karate - kihon, kata and kumite, or four if you count the word karate! Kihon means basics, Kata means forms and Kumite means partner work or sparring. This article deals with Kata.

In Shotokan Karate there are 26 official kata - 5 basic kata, 6 intermediate kata and 15 advanced kata. It takes many years to learn all of them let alone to master them all. There is a Japanese saying that goes “Hito kata, san-nen” - “One kata, three years” meaning that mastery of each kata takes three years of practice. This phrase is very difficult for a beginner to understand because most beginners to Karate think they know Heian Shodan (the first kata) after about 3 months of practice, some even sooner. What they mean of course is that they can do the moves in the right order and make it look like they know something. The truth of the matter is that they managed to get through a set sequence or pattern of moves that really has little bearing on their real knowledge of Karate. It probably shows their memory ability and coordination skills more than anything else.

I’m sorry because I don’t want to burst any bubbles or detract from the sense of satisfaction of remembering the first kata because that is truly an achievement, but what I do want to do is to explain what true mastery of a kata really means and that knowing really implies understanding and doing.

To be able to replicate the moves of a kata without mistake is the first step in learning a kata. You start by learning direction, followed by left and right, then technique, then strength, power, speed and focus and finally rhythm and honest self-expression.

If you have got this far in terms of your overall ability to perform a kata competently then you are probably a black belt or close to that rank.

However to attain true kata mastery it is necessary to delve deeper, beyond the aesthetically pleasing moves to the bunkai (application).

The bunkai of kata teaches us the true meaning and relevance of kata as a whole. As stated bunkai means application, more specifically how can I use these moves that I am practicing to devastating effect against an opponent.

When you are able to take the moves of a kata out of the context of the kata in which you learned the moves and apply them to various combat situations effectively then you can begin to claim that you know the kata. This is the real meaning of kata and this is why you should always practice kata diligently.

[Holy Moment]

Are you guys fucking ready?

[Holy Moment]

Also, kata is some serious pussy shit.

[Ridgway]

QUOTE=ermghoti;2905604]
Pretty much everybody here would agree with this, but you'll get resistance if people think you're arguing a bad fighting technique is a good self-defense technique, or vice versa.[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry but I don't understand. How is judging a situation and knowing when to. Or when not to fight is a bad self-defence technique. If it saves you or your family then surely it's an option.

[DCS]

[ermghoti]

I'm sorry but I don't understand. How is judging a situation and knowing when to. Or when not to fight is a bad self-defence technique. If it saves you or your family then surely it's an option.

I would call that a strategy, not a technique, but I can see the terms being used interchangeably. I'm not talking about avoidance, de-escalation and escape, which in fact comprise nearly 100% of self-defense. I'm talking about the application of force; fighting techniques. If a technique can't be used in training or competition successfully, by which I am not including illegal or unsafe moves, they will not be better used in self-defense scenarios. A bad choke escape, a defense from a comical lunge punch, anything that assumes an attacker will follow a script after initial contact.

There is a Japanese saying that goes “Hito kata, san-nen” - “One kata, three years” meaning that mastery of each kata takes three years of practice.

I can think of an extensive list of things that would be a better use of three years than mastering a kata if your goal is to become more effective as a fighter. No boxing gym is famous for its shadow-boxing.

Given most drilling is dead I will call most "drilling" a "kata" The point of these things is to learn the movements.

I'd think the opposite way is more accurate: kata is drilling. In fact, drilling gets progressively closer to live work, whereas kata stalls out at choreographed two-person drills, AFAIK.

[Devil]

I think the "Kata" discussion is interesting, because every art including Boxing and BJJ have some form of "kata" I mean we don't call doing line drills, Stability ball work, technique drilling, throwing dummy drilling, CTX drilling, Shadow Boxing "Kata", but that is what those things are, they serve a purpose. I think the key thing here that alive arts know is that you cannot JUST do these things and hope to be any good. You can do the Judo/BJJ warm up every day 8 times a day, followed up by compliant technique drilling for 10 years, and sure you will be a bit better prepared for a fight than the guy that does nothing, but you are going to get your ass handed to you by hell I would say a white belt that has been training properly for 6 months.

The difference is more significant than that. Most of the activities you mention have a solid purpose. They're specifically meant to improve some aspect of your fighting and they're far more productive than the kata you see with karate and TKD, etc.

The problem with karate kata, for instance, is that a shit ton of the techniques have virtually no direct application to real fighting. Judo kata is different because you're practicing the techniques you're actually expected to fight with. A good portion of the movements in the kata you find in traditional striking arts are completely nonsensical and therefore, a waste of time.

[Devil]

All this talk of kata. It is there for a reason to show that you have an understanding of the move's and techniques you have been shown. As for fighting. hell, if your art defends you from an attacker on the street. Then it's done it's job and if it doesn't. You need to identify the problem and work on it.
As for those who boast to be unbeatable need to wise up. Because there is always someone out there who will put them on their ars.

An understanding of shit moves and shit techniques doesn't really do much to improve your ability to defend yourself.