Five Hard Truths about Martial Arts that you don’t want to believe.

[Ridgway]

I think I get what you mean.
I'm of the belief that you never stop learning. So to say you are the best is stupid. Because there is always room for improvement.

[Ridgway]

All this talk of kata. It is there for a reason to show that you have an understanding of the move's and techniques you have been shown. As for fighting. hell, if your art defends you from an attacker on the street. Then it's done it's job and if it doesn't. You need to identify the problem and work on it.
As for those who boast to be unbeatable need to wise up. Because there is always someone out there who will put them on their ars.

[BackFistMonkey]

All this talk of kata. It is there for a reason to show that you have an understanding of the move's and techniques you have been shown.

Techniques that can be executed only by your little ole lonesome against air. Kata shows no mastery and no understanding of technique nor application of technique.

As for fighting. hell, if your art defends you from an attacker on the street.

You think you should wait until your or your family's life is in danger to find out if your air punching and compliant training is going to work?
I should hope you see the problems with that train of thought.

Then it's done it's job and if it doesn't.

If it doesn't what were the results on the mean streets?
Death? Maybe severe injury because you fought back when you should have just tossed your wallet or let those guys call you a pussy?

You need to identify the problem and work on it.

Statistically you will only get one chance to test your self defense skills. Unless you are a little bitch and try to start conflict then you will get plenty of chances.

As for those who boast to be unbeatable need to wise up. Because there is always someone out there who will put them on their ars.

Which is why you should always be competing and testing and pushing yourself. So you not only know your limits but so you can reminded of this concept. No one who trains in a combat sport thinks they are unbeatable. Oh sure some may talk that good shit to stir people up and play the promotional games but real hubris usually comes from the arts which do not spar with heavy contact, compete, and/or train under restrictive and silly rule sets.

[Mandem]

I think the "Kata" discussion is interesting, because every art including Boxing and BJJ have some form of "kata" I mean we don't call Shadow Boxing "Kata", but that is what those things are, they serve a purpose

I can't really talk about the other examples you gave but shadow boxing is actually very different from kata, the point (at least in the gyms I've trained at) is not to learn a long sequence of moves then recite it but to improvise combinations on the fly, which will help you in sparring because it improves your ability to think on the spot as well as drilling moves into your head

[ermghoti]

As for fighting. hell, if your art defends you from an attacker on the street. Then it's done it's job and if it doesn't. You need to identify the problem and work on it.

Strangely, I find the martial arts practiced by guys who are over 250 lbs and 6'6" seem to work better than everybody else's. I guess I should work on that.

[Tramirezmma]

I think the "Kata" discussion is interesting, because every art including Boxing and BJJ have some form of "kata" I mean we don't call doing line drills, Stability ball work, technique drilling, throwing dummy drilling, CTX drilling, Shadow Boxing "Kata", but that is what those things are, they serve a purpose. I think the key thing here that alive arts know is that you cannot JUST do these things and hope to be any good. You can do the Judo/BJJ warm up every day 8 times a day, followed up by compliant technique drilling for 10 years, and sure you will be a bit better prepared for a fight than the guy that does nothing, but you are going to get your ass handed to you by hell I would say a white belt that has been training properly for 6 months.

I disagree with this equivalence, Goodlun. Shadow boxing is dynamic and unscripted, not kata. Single person drilling is usually some form of dynamic exercise meant to increase a certain attribute important to fighting, not a demonstration of technique, which is what Kata is at its essence.

Partner drills are not Kata, because they involve kinetic feedback, even if done with low intensity, like drilling your techniques in grappling or combo drills in striking.

Kata is a preordered series of techniques memorized in order to exhibit one's supposed technical abilities. I don't think it is good for anything besides being boring as shit.

[BKR]

I disagree with this equivalence, Goodlun. Shadow boxing is dynamic and unscripted, not kata. Single person drilling is usually some form of dynamic exercise meant to increase a certain attribute important to fighting, not a demonstration of technique, which is what Kata is at its essence.

Partner drills are not Kata, because they involve kinetic feedback, even if done with low intensity, like drilling your techniques in grappling or combo drills in striking.

Kata is a preordered series of techniques memorized in order to exhibit one's supposed technical abilities. I don't think it is good for anything besides being boring as shit.

Stick to things you understand, like whining about your life situation.

And no, that's not a ringing endorsement of kata as a training method. See, training method?

[Tramirezmma]

Stick to things you understand, like whining about your life situation.

And no, that's not a ringing endorsement of kata as a training method. See, training method?

You can bite me. I also understand whining about other things as well.

[Guird]

I think the "Kata" discussion is interesting, because every art including Boxing and BJJ have some form of "kata" I mean we don't call doing line drills, Stability ball work, technique drilling, throwing dummy drilling, CTX drilling, Shadow Boxing "Kata", but that is what those things are, they serve a purpose. I think the key thing here that alive arts know is that you cannot JUST do these things and hope to be any good. You can do the Judo/BJJ warm up every day 8 times a day, followed up by compliant technique drilling for 10 years, and sure you will be a bit better prepared for a fight than the guy that does nothing, but you are going to get your ass handed to you by hell I would say a white belt that has been training properly for 6 months.

I somehow doubt you are familiar with shotokan Kata.
The idea of doing sequences of techniques on the air is not that far fetched in itself, and Kata in the sense I've heard it applied in grappling arts, of doing sequences of techniques on a partner is a pretty basic part of almost any grappling training.

The big thing with so many of the things called Kata is that the movements within them simply don't make any sense.

I really get the whole idea of doing shotokan Kata for fun though. I did a few that I half-renembered from my shotokan days and there is just something about it. Feels like meditation.

[NeilG]

Partner drills are not Kata, because they involve kinetic feedback, even if done with low intensity, like drilling your techniques in grappling or combo drills in striking.

Many martial arts have paired kata. Judo has a variety of kata in which you throw, hold or apply subs to your partner. Kendo and other weapons-based arts have kata where one partner attacks the other and is countered. Your definition of kata is very narrow.

[BackFistMonkey]

I have never liked how many arts conflate kata and drilling.
I am sure the two man drills and two three step sparring are "kata" but I personally feel as if the it is in name only.

In most peoples minds Kata is air punching and kicking with grunting and screaming, sometimes done in group formation while drills, demos, and step sparing are usually considered drills, demos and step sparing.

Your definition of kata is very narrow.

Oh God yes it is. Probably technically wrong too.

[BKR]

You can bite me. I also understand whining about other things as well.

LOL, glad you are feeling better...

In any case, my point stands.

[NeilG]

I have never liked how many arts conflate kata and drilling.
I am sure the two man drills and two three step sparring are "kata" but I personally feel as if the it is in name only.

Well in kendo we have plenty of paired drills and they are not considered kata. We also have a formalized set of drills used to teach people various techniques called bokuto ni yoru kendo kihon-waza keiko-ho, and to an outsider it may look like kata but it is not according to our definition. IMO a kata has to contain some portion of a fight and demonstrate some principles beyond the mere execution of technique.

[goodlun]

I can't really talk about the other examples you gave but shadow boxing is actually very different from kata, the point (at least in the gyms I've trained at) is not to learn a long sequence of moves then recite it but to improvise combinations on the fly, which will help you in sparring because it improves your ability to think on the spot as well as drilling moves into your head

Really? Do you suppose that doing the same sort of free-flowing Kata work in Karate would help them with sparring?
http://boxingcombinations.blogspot.c...binations.html
Those are just patterns. Sure you are mixing up the different patterns on the fly but usually why you are shadow boxing you will throw one of those 16 patterns followed up by another then another. You think chaining together different Katas freeform makes things different? It's still just throwing punches in the air at an imaginary opponent. It still lacks aliveness.
Sure I have a broader sense of what I will call a "Kata".
Any sort of "dead" pattern, even if that pattern is being made up on the fly.
This includes shrimping across the mat.
Drilling a spinning armbar with a non-resisting opponent.
Throwing punches at the air in combinations based on solely what is going through your mind.
Hitting pads and bag work can even be a Kata if there is no aliveness in it.
If you do not have any sort of input that requires you to change up your timing, distance or make changes as you move through a technique it is Kata.
Given most drilling is dead I will call most "drilling" a "kata" The point of these things is to learn the movements.

[goodlun]

I also fully accept not everyone(or hell maybe no one) is going to see things my way with regards to Kata/forms.