Five Hard Truths about Martial Arts that you don’t want to believe.

[BKR]

Hmm, total medal count for men, top 20, since 2009 includes Olympics, WC, and the various Grand Slam, Grand Prix, Junior (u21) and Cadet (u18) tournaments. Top 10 bolded.


Gold Silver Bronze
1 Russia 258 203 411
2 Japan 222 109 202
3 Brazil 141 130 194
4 South Korea 137 85 152
5 Georgia 122 113 197
6 France 119 106 208
7 Uzbekistan 77 77 167
8 Azerbaijan 77 47 113
9 Mongolia 73 92 170
10 Netherlands 67 64 105
11 Germany 56 63 139
12 Italy 48 59 135
13 Great Britain 48 58 101
14 Australia 48 35 53
15 Ukraine 46 54 120
16 Egypt 40 35 48
17 Hungary 39 49 109
18 Kazakhstan 38 50 87
19 Israel 31 37 78
20 Belgium 30 26 56

And Men and women, including the u18 and u21. Japan really catches up and leads based on results for women.
1 Japan 513 274 426
2 Russia 358 324 675
3 France 297 260 504
4 Brazil 250 247 390
5 South Korea 213 169 289
6 Netherlands 161 146 269
7 Germany 158 204 425
8 Mongolia 130 155 293
9 Georgia 129 120 208
10 Great Britain 106 124 255
11 China 103 77 158
12 Italy 98 128 251
13 Uzbekistan 97 101 203
14 Slovenia 92 70 141
15 Australia 91 84 91
16 Azerbaijan 86 54 130
17 Hungary 79 92 185
18 Cuba 74 65 101
19 United States 73 80 174
20 Ukraine 71 106 229

[ChenPengFi]

I think what you present is one way. Not the way. Essentially, I think you're a little too sure of your answer.

We could both sit here all day long and make lists of world class athletes who specialized early and world class athletes who didn't. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

That's because you have a goal in mind.
If your child has the same inclinations you're more "lucky" than anything.
That the majority of BJJ World Black Belt Division Gold Medal Champions didn't even start until after the age of 12 is significant.
Looking at it any other way is looking at the outliers.
Those same trends appear in all sports.
Can success happen with early specialization?
Of course, but that's the minority of cases in most sports.

And remember team sports are to develop the individual, not make them better at their "goal".
That makes them better athletes/students overall.
There's much to be learned there besides furthering a specific goal and those things pay off later.
That's covering the most bases as is age appropriate.
None of this is my opinion btw, it's pretty settled stuff.

I'm not a fan of ball sports in general either.

[ChenPengFi]

I think the fringe people enjoy martial arts . Surfers,skaters, bmx, etc. Definitely are fringe people as well.

Surfing has the element that you'll never, ever overpower the ocean.
You have to adapt your movement to what is happening in the moment, no matter how quick it's happening.
I think that's a common attraction; the immediacy and the reliance on technique.

[NeilG]

I think that's a common attraction; the immediacy and the reliance on technique.

I thought it was the surfer girls.

Surfing is super hard. I'm a pretty decent skater and snowboarder and I really struggled with just catching a wave the few times I've tried.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Yea, the numbers say it's the throws that are the more dangerous part of the equation. The numbers are out there. Everyone here has seen them at this point.

They only reason there is now Judo juvenile death numbers is the Japanese government in recent years made it illegal for the numbers not to be reported to a collecting agency.
Right now Jiu-Jitsu injury numbers are neither reported nor regulated.
Just like for years aggregate concussion data in professional football was not tracked,
Just like for many years tobacco use was not tracked medically.
The numbers we do have for Jiu-Jitsu are not being well aggregated, tested, and confirmed.
We have a couple studies.
Not enough to draw any conclusions yet.
We need 20 years of studies with first class data collection to draw conclusions.
However, we know from other sports that the growth plates in kids under 12, and brain development in males under 14 are prone to serious and permanent injury in contact sports.
In almost every large BJJ tournament there is a kid who gets injured from submissions.
The outcome of those injuries (including return to sport) is not currently tracked.
Injuries happen in all sports.
The whole reason I started the awareness campaign regarding kids safety in grappling was:
1) My friend's kid got killed on the football field due to a totally preventable injury.
2) the MMA community take the argument of no kids get injured and put kids as the talent in MMA events where spectators get charged gate to watch, and
3) Several of my colleagues from Brazil advertise that injuries only happen to kids in American ran tournaments.
4) I worked professionally with kids with epilepsy, and many of those kids were healthy kids until they took a head injury.
5) When I tried to find injury numbers of juvenile US wrestling, Judo, and BJJ, I found the same type of under-reporting bias they had in Japan until their government made the reporting, collection, and review of those numbers for kids a legal imperative with stiff penalties for errors.

[Devil]

The thing with ball sports (soccer, Lacrosse) is that they are team sports, which promotes socialization, working together, strategy, teamwork (when properly instructed...), as well as conditioning and coordination. Lacrosse rocks, wear pads, contact, and sticks and ball, lots of running (unless you are goalie), dodging, etc.

Combat sports don't promote socialization, working together, strategy, teamwork, conditioning and coordination? These kids don't train by themselves in a vacuum. They don't train without coaches. They don't get away with being dickheads.

[DCS]

Devil

I understand your kids do not play other sports other than combat sports, am I correct?

[Devil]

That's because you have a goal in mind.
If your child has the same inclinations you're more "lucky" than anything.
That the majority of BJJ World Black Belt Division Gold Medal Champions didn't even start until after the age of 12 is significant.
Looking at it any other way is looking at the outliers.
Those same trends appear in all sports.
Can success happen with early specialization?
Of course, but that's the minority of cases in most sports.

And remember team sports are to develop the individual, not make them better at their "goal".
That makes them better athletes/students overall.
There's much to be learned there besides furthering a specific goal and those things pay off later.
That's covering the most bases as is age appropriate.
None of this is my opinion btw, it's pretty settled stuff.

I'm not a fan of ball sports in general either.

A lot if it is, in fact your opinion.

People who find a sport early that they love and continue to love throughout their lives are already going to be the exception to the rule. That doesn't mean there's no benefit to finding that sport early. We're already talking about outliers because people who are the cream of the crop in their sport are outliers.

Again, I am fully supportive of cross training. But I also see advantages to early exposure. If they get burned out and quit, then they do. But the kids that don't have an advantage, especially in a skill sport.

For example, I see some kids at jiu jitsu competitions who are so good. Kids who will easily be creeping up on black belt skill level by their 18th birthday (I know the rank requirements. I'm talking about comparative skill).

Let's assume those kids continue training with enthusiasm and don't quit. If someone thinks they're going to start jiu jitsu at 18 and just catch up with these people who are as accustomed to jiu jitsu as they are to breathing, I think that is overly optimistic to say the least. I think they've got a long motherfucking row to hoe.

As much as martial artists love to talk about more mat time being the key to success, I think it's silly as hell to pretend a ten year head start doesn't matter.

[Devil]

Devil

I understand your kids do not play other sports other than combat sports, am I correct?

They both have done so but not currently. They both have complete freedom to participate in whatever sports they choose. My only rule is that they both participate in some physical activity. I also had a rule that once they started martial arts they had to give it a year. If they didn't like it, they could quit whenever they wanted after that. They're both well past that year. I regularly ask them if they're enjoying it and remind them that they are under no obligation to continue.

My daughter enjoys jiu jitsu casually. My son thinks it's the best thing in the world and enjoys cross training in other combat sports.

[Raycetpfl]

A lot if it is, in fact your opinion.

People who find a sport early that they love and continue to love throughout their lives are already going to be the exception to the rule. That doesn't mean there's no benefit to finding that sport early. We're already talking about outliers because people who are the cream of the crop in their sport are outliers.

Again, I am fully supportive of cross training. But I also see advantages to early exposure. If they get burned out and quit, then they do. But the kids that don't have an advantage, especially in a skill sport.

For example, I see some kids at jiu jitsu competitions who are so good. Kids who will easily be creeping up on black belt skill level by their 18th birthday (I know the rank requirements. I'm talking about comparative skill).

Let's assume those kids continue training with enthusiasm and don't quit. If someone thinks they're going to start jiu jitsu at 18 and just catch up with these people who are as accustomed to jiu jitsu as they are to breathing, I think that is overly optimistic to say the least. I think they've got a long motherfucking row to hoe.

As much as martial artists love to talk about more mat time being the key to success, I think it's silly as hell to pretend a ten year head start doesn't matter.

My parents never put me in boxing or bjj like I begged them too. All I ever wanted to do was combat sports. They never listened or took the time. I would have done very well but i didnt get any support. Kids will tell you what they want to do. Just listen and pay attention to them.
Success in sports is genetics and luck. Just hope they learn to work hard, struggle and love it. That's really the important part.

[Devil]

My parents never put me in boxing or bjj like I begged them too. All I ever wanted to do was combat sports. They never listened or took the time. I would have done very well but i didnt get any support. Kids will tell you what they want to do. Just listen and pay attention to them.
Success in sports is genetics and luck. Just hope they learn to work hard, struggle and love it. That's really the important part.

I was in the same boat. Except I was years away from ever hearing the term BJJ. I was fascinated with martial arts from a young age. But I didn't know one from the other, really. My parents weren't all that supportive either and I didn't have a lot of opportunity to train at all until I was about 17. I most definitely would've wrestled but my school didn't have a wrestling program. Opportunities were just limited for me at a young age. But I was extremely fascinated with martial arts and one-on-one combat sports and fighting arts.

Come on, man. Success in sports is not just genetics and luck. That is a factor for sure but it's about training and hard work too. I was just reading a FB post by Rhadi Ferguson where he was irritated because someone saw his kid playing soccer and called him a natural. And he knew he wasn't a natural at all. That he sucked and struggled and trained his ass off with his Dad's guidance to improve.

[Raycetpfl]

As much as martial artists love to talk about more mat time being the key to success, I think it's silly as hell to pretend a ten year head start doesn't matter.

My daughter has been training since 6. While it's a nice head start it's not an insurmountable difference. The years before 10 years old just aren't worth real years. That training can be made up in months by a 10 year old who is interested . Every little bit helps for sure though.
It's pretty neat watching her now. I am watching her move wonderfully and easily catch some high school boys. it's crazy. It's in the realm of possibility that she may be the best ever someday. She giggles and rolls her eyes at me when I tell her that but I think she is starting to see it too. I use to have to drag her to class at times(6-10ish) now she never wants a day off.
I don't know how far she will take it but I am just thrilled she found something she loves. she also helps my Mrs.teach kids class twice a week and loves helping the kids.
Hard sports training if nothing else are a fantastic route to self betterment.

[Devil]

My daughter has been training since 6. While it's a nice head start it's not an insurmountable difference. The years before 10 years old just aren't worth real years. That training can be made up in months by a 10 year old who is interested . Every little bit helps for sure though.
It's pretty neat watching her now. I am watching her move wonderfully and easily catch some high school boys. it's crazy. It's in the realm of possibility that she may be the best ever someday. She giggles and rolls her eyes at me when I tell her that but I think she is starting to see it too. I use to have to drag her to class at times(6-10ish) now she never wants a day off.
I don't know how far she will take it but I am just thrilled she found something she loves. she also helps my Mrs.teach kids class twice a week and loves helping the kids.
Hard sports training if nothing else are a fantastic route to self betterment.

Right, but 10 years old is still early as hell. I'm not suggesting they need to start out of the womb. I'm saying if they start as early as they're able to learn, then that is a good thing. Again, I'm talking about training from childhood vs. starting as a young adult. There is a vast difference between starting at 10 and starting at 18.

I've posted video of this girl before because I think she's a little badass. I see her competing at tournaments I go to all the time. I believe she's around 14 or 15 now, so that would put her age in this video at 11 or 12, I believe. Somewhere in that range. What is a chick her own age and size going to do with her at 25 years old if she steps on the mat for the first time at 18. It seems to me like the obvious answer is not much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXvY_2CJcm8

[Raycetpfl]

I was in the same boat. Except I was years away from ever hearing the term BJJ. I was fascinated with martial arts from a young age. But I didn't know one from the other, really. My parents weren't all that supportive either and I didn't have a lot of opportunity to train at all until I was about 17. I most definitely would've wrestled but my school didn't have a wrestling program. Opportunities were just limited for me at a young age. But I was extremely fascinated with martial arts and one-on-one combat sports and fighting arts.

Come on, man. Success in sports is not just genetics and luck. That is a factor for sure but it's about training and hard work too. I was just reading a FB post by Rhadi Ferguson where he was irritated because someone saw his kid playing soccer and called him a natural. And he knew he wasn't a natural at all. That he sucked and struggled and trained his ass off with his Dad's guidance to improve.

Rahdi can get as mad as he wants but he's a god damn genetic marvel. I doubt his son has the movement abilities of a kid with polio.

That would be like Vitor Befort claiming his success is due solely to his hard work....... and failing to mention his muscle contractions are some how connected to the mystical powers of the speed force that give the flash his super speed.

The entire mma/bjj top ten are genetic marvels in nearly every weight class. It's nature and nurture. Hard work taps talent but physical gifts and hard work create an advantage that is hard to top. Then one bad injury or mental break down can take it all away. So ultimately it's not about who's best, it's about who's left of the best.

[Devil]

Rahdi can get as mad as he wants but he's a god damn genetic marvel. I doubt his son has the movement abilities of a kid with polio.

That would be like Vitor Befort claiming his success is due solely to his hard work....... and failing to mention his muscle contractions are some how connected to the mystical powers of the speed force that give the flash his super speed.

The entire mma/bjj top ten are genetic marvels in nearly every weight class. It's nature and nurture. Hard work taps talent but physical gifts and hard work create an advantage that is hard to top. Then one bad injury or mental break down can take it all away. So ultimately it's not about who's best, it's about who's left of the best.

You're arguing a point that is different than the point I have presented to you. I would never insinuate that physical gifts don't matter. But the other side of that coin is that they also don't mean much without putting in the work. You said success in sports is determined by genetics and luck. I don't believe it's nearly that simple. I think that's one piece of the puzzle. An important piece, to be sure.