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Five Hard Truths about Martial Arts that you donít want to believe.

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  • Yosuke
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    For civilians no. The biggest reason is, it has to be a coordinated attack. SWAT teams, military assualt teams, even police will train this, but it has to be done with their respective team/partner, because of the coordination thing. Lack of coordination(and also effective communication) is what gives a trained fighter a chance to win his way free or even possibly prevail in a multi-assailant attack. So groups that want to minimize casualties train for that level of coordination.

    Is that level realistically available to a civilian... well there are people that do it for civilians, but you should honestly see that as larping with guns. If you are a hardcore survivalist, or convinced that a home invasion is imminent, I have heard of domestic partner teams getting that sort of training, but bear in mind it is a degradable skill set so you would have to practice often and frequently. Training with a bunch of buddies that may or may not be there just isn't practical, and like I said is more about larping with guns.
    Honestly,I think more Martial arts schools need to incorporate this kind of training in addition to the standard one-on-one regime. After all,one of the most common motivations for getting into Martial arts is to protect your family. Well,why not have your family learn physical teamwork so if danger does come,they are more likely to do what is needed to be done. Of course,its no replacement to individual training and its just a supplement. I'll look more into this thing at a later time.

    This talk actually reminds me of a time when my cousin bragged to me that if he ever got into it with a knife attacker,he and his friends would just gang up on the guy. fast forward a few years later,when it actually did happen. He and his friend got mugged by some bum with a knife or whatever kind of edged weapon,he was being mugged for a chocolate drink he was holding(I found it strange to mug someone over a small drink,but some people are desperate I suppose...or just stupid)and instead actually just giving it to him(that drink is incredibly common and cheap in my area),he did something really stupid. he decided to spill the drink on the floor,and predictably it enraged the guy. Wanna know what his friend did? He bailed on him,much to his surprise/shock. He ended up running too and thankfully he got away unscathed(although if I had to guess,it was probably because the bum didn't really want to hurt him,he just wanted the drink) I didn't see the event myself but my grandma told me the story and my cousin confirmed it.

    My cousin has never been in a serious one-on-one fight,but he says some of the dumbest shit about fighting. I'm happy he learned a good lesson without paying for it in blood,but its pretty nasty to just abandon a friend like that. If you're gonna run,at least grab your friend by the arm and take him with you(if he stubbornly insist on staying after you try,and you don't particularly care much for the guy,then ok. you may leave him to his foolishness)

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  • PDA
    replied
    Originally posted by Holy Moment View Post
    What the fuck?1 Ninjutsu and Wing Chun SUCK, they don't have spaaring!
    That was too obvious us wasn't it

    Leave a comment:


  • ermghoti
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    Nah, you would need to teach a minimum of four. One tank, one healer, and two DPS.
    And one LEEEEEEEERRRROOOOY JEEEEEEENNNKIIIIIIINNNNNSSSSSS.

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael Tzadok
    replied
    Originally posted by ermghoti View Post
    Arts for civilians, I'm drawing a blank. It seems to be more of an on-the-job training thing, as others have observed. That does make sense, since it takes a lot less time and subtlety to learn to gang up on a guy, and the application would be even more rare that one-on-one fighting, given that you'd have to be in the company of other people trained in the same techniques, and that optimally, each attacker should have a role. Barring firearms, I'd think three healthy adults that each have assignments, training, and no LEO-type proscription against techniques would readily stop any single opponent after maybe six months of classes. But, again, how do you market such a system? What would the public/law enforcement perception be of the school?
    Nah, you would need to teach a minimum of four. One tank, one healer, and two DPS.

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael Tzadok
    replied
    Originally posted by Yosuke View Post
    I think you misunderstood my comment,but I can see why. I'll edit my post. The question isn't about how to handle multiple attackers,but how to most efficiently take out a threat when YOU have the numbers advantage,while minimizing everyone's injuries(including the guy being ganged up on.)
    For civilians no. The biggest reason is, it has to be a coordinated attack. SWAT teams, military assualt teams, even police will train this, but it has to be done with their respective team/partner, because of the coordination thing. Lack of coordination(and also effective communication) is what gives a trained fighter a chance to win his way free or even possibly prevail in a multi-assailant attack. So groups that want to minimize casualties train for that level of coordination.

    Is that level realistically available to a civilian... well there are people that do it for civilians, but you should honestly see that as larping with guns. If you are a hardcore survivalist, or convinced that a home invasion is imminent, I have heard of domestic partner teams getting that sort of training, but bear in mind it is a degradable skill set so you would have to practice often and frequently. Training with a bunch of buddies that may or may not be there just isn't practical, and like I said is more about larping with guns.

    Leave a comment:


  • ermghoti
    replied
    Originally posted by Yosuke View Post
    Out of curiosity,is there any system that you know of that actually teaches how to most efficiently overwhelm someone USING superior numbers? (you are the one with the numbers advantage) I think only LEO's,SWAT teams,and Military are taught this,but there has to be a genuine video out there that gets into this.
    Arts for civilians, I'm drawing a blank. It seems to be more of an on-the-job training thing, as others have observed. That does make sense, since it takes a lot less time and subtlety to learn to gang up on a guy, and the application would be even more rare that one-on-one fighting, given that you'd have to be in the company of other people trained in the same techniques, and that optimally, each attacker should have a role. Barring firearms, I'd think three healthy adults that each have assignments, training, and no LEO-type proscription against techniques would readily stop any single opponent after maybe six months of classes. But, again, how do you market such a system? What would the public/law enforcement perception be of the school?

    Leave a comment:


  • submessenger
    replied
    Originally posted by Yosuke View Post
    Seriously,with all the guys asking about how to defeat multiple attackers (the only real solution is to either fight until you can escape,or inflict serious injury on them)
    For that matter, and this is only slightly tongue-in-cheek, where are all the arts that will train you to be a part of a team of multiple attackers?

    (edit) I'm sometimes compromised by the fact that I don't read every single post. Good question:
    Originally posted by Yosuke View Post
    Out of curiosity,is there any system that you know of that actually teaches how to most efficiently overwhelm someone USING superior numbers?

    Leave a comment:


  • Yosuke
    replied
    Originally posted by BackFistMonkey View Post
    Yosuke,
    I cant think of any arts that teach 2+on1 . I would think to minimize damage to the uke or the victim I would assume one would draw from BJJ, Judo and JJJ. All the fun compliiance techniques I have encountered come from those roots.

    Japanese teaches in some schools practice swarming and using polearms to pin and restrain armed and unarmed assailants

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUkA8BlfSNY.

    DdlR posted a thread about here http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=97583
    I can see how that could work,it would seem to be good for subduing an unarmed guy. but if you're dealing with an armed guy,especially if he's enraged,Its probably time to resort to lethal force as the chances of either you or your allies getting seriously injured is too great. (especially if you and your friends are just civilians and thus,not really your job to handle armed criminals. that's assuming you can't get away for some reason)
    http://bluelivesmatter.blue/video-po...ding-suspects/

    Still,lets wait for someone else to chime in on this matter. I'm just thinking of subduing a single unarmed man. Expecting civilians to still play nice with someone armed is very unreasonable if you ask me.

    Leave a comment:


  • Yosuke
    replied
    Originally posted by Dork Angel View Post
    Yeah, law enforcement riot snatch squads (though some beating is often involved). Prison officers removing unruly prisoners from their cells is another. In days past they would charge into the cell using a mattress to pin them to the wall until they could grab a limb each. Training progressed to perspex riot shields and techniques now often included pain compliance holds. In all those cases equipment was involved though. Judging by the police arrest videos online, everyone just kind of piles on...

    I imagine doormen or bodyguards might receive some many on one style training which doesn't use weapons or equipment.
    Hopefully someone could provide a video for us. Seriously,with all the guys asking about how to defeat multiple attackers (the only real solution is to either fight until you can escape,or inflict serious injury on them),almost no one is really asking about how to safely subdue someone. You can much more easily justify you and your friends having to subdue a potentially dangerous guy than if you decided to break him. (that's not to say that there isn't a time and place for that,but if you have reliable friends,you have a better chance of avoiding resorting to more dangerous force.)

    Leave a comment:


  • BackFistMonkey
    replied
    Yosuke,
    I cant think of any arts that teach 2+on1 . I would think to minimize damage to the uke or the victim I would assume one would draw from BJJ, Judo and JJJ. All the fun compliiance techniques I have encountered come from those roots.

    Japanese teaches in some schools practice swarming and using polearms to pin and restrain armed and unarmed assailants

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUkA8BlfSNY.

    DdlR posted a thread about here http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=97583

    Leave a comment:


  • Holy Moment
    replied
    Originally posted by PDA View Post
    Both Wing Chun and Ninjutsu cover this in great detail and success.
    What the fuck?1 Ninjutsu and Wing Chun SUCK, they don't have spaaring!

    Leave a comment:


  • Dork Angel
    replied
    Originally posted by Yosuke View Post
    Out of curiosity,is there any system that you know of that actually teaches how to most efficiently overwhelm someone USING superior numbers? (you are the one with the numbers advantage) I think only LEO's,SWAT teams,and Military are taught this,but there has to be a genuine video out there that gets into this.

    BTW,when I use the word "most efficiently",I'm talking about minimizing the damage for everyone involved(including the dude being ganged up on. after all,sometimes we're just trying to subdue an unruly person,not beat them into hospitalization.)
    Yeah, law enforcement riot snatch squads (though some beating is often involved). Prison officers removing unruly prisoners from their cells is another. In days past they would charge into the cell using a mattress to pin them to the wall until they could grab a limb each. Training progressed to perspex riot shields and techniques now often included pain compliance holds. In all those cases equipment was involved though. Judging by the police arrest videos online, everyone just kind of piles on...

    I imagine doormen or bodyguards might receive some many on one style training which doesn't use weapons or equipment.

    Leave a comment:


  • Yosuke
    replied
    Originally posted by PDA View Post
    Both Wing Chun and Ninjutsu cover this in great detail and success.
    Sorry,I didn't word that correctly. I edited the post. Its you with the numbers advantage and trying to subdue the guy while minimizing everyone's injuries. (including the opponent)

    Leave a comment:


  • Yosuke
    replied
    Originally posted by Tranquil Suit View Post
    The martial art of sprinting.
    I think you misunderstood my comment,but I can see why. I'll edit my post. The question isn't about how to handle multiple attackers,but how to most efficiently take out a threat when YOU have the numbers advantage,while minimizing everyone's injuries(including the guy being ganged up on.)

    Leave a comment:


  • PDA
    replied
    Originally posted by Yosuke View Post
    Out of curiosity,is there any system that you know of that actually teaches how to most efficiently overwhelm someone with superior numbers? I think only LEO's,SWAT teams,and Military are taught this,but there has to be a genuine video out there that gets into this.

    BTW,when I use the word "most efficiently",I'm talking about minimizing the damage for everyone involved(including the dude being ganged up on. after all,sometimes we're just trying to subdue an unruly person,not beat them into hospitalization.)
    Both Wing Chun and Ninjutsu cover this in great detail and success.

    Leave a comment:

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