So I'm reading up into the Bullshido article on Wing Chun, had me thinking

[kimjonghng]

If wing chun suffers from a poor ground game and lack of full-contact sparring, could cross training it into another art, say BJJ and a full contact style like Kickboxing or Karate help round those skills out in a more applicable way?

Just some thinking I've had since my training has expanded. Im training Goju Ryu Karate, Brazilian Jujitsu, and my club is now adding Kickboxing classes as well. We've got a lot of sparring and ground fighting now. While I have some interest in Chun theory from some previous dabbling and being friends/sparring partners with a Wing Chunner, I wondered if perhaps anything of Chun could be put into that hard training style and combined with that sort of pressure and a ground game to make something really useful?

[Azatdawn]

Well, there are a few that at least try to, including cross-sparring with MMA guys, boxers, etc.

https://www.facebook.com/sean.wood.9...6611581184906/

[Raycetpfl]

As a Bjj guy I highly endorse everybody striking like these guys do. That way if everyone is striking in a Wing Chun manner I won't ever have to worry about being knocked out when I try and clinch up.
I can't think of anything that would make me happier than never having to worry about someone getting their hips and shoulders involved when trying to punch me.

[W. Rabbit]

If wing chun suffers from a poor ground game and lack of full-contact sparring, could cross training it into another art, say BJJ and a full contact style like Kickboxing or Karate help round those skills out in a more applicable way?

Just some thinking I've had since my training has expanded. Im training Goju Ryu Karate, Brazilian Jujitsu, and my club is now adding Kickboxing classes as well. We've got a lot of sparring and ground fighting now. While I have some interest in Chun theory from some previous dabbling and being friends/sparring partners with a Wing Chunner, I wondered if perhaps anything of Chun could be put into that hard training style and combined with that sort of pressure and a ground game to make something really useful?

Wing Chun doesn't suffer from either of those things. No art "suffers" from a lack of anything. Judo and BJJ don't suffer from lack of striking. Abstract art like Cubism (Picasso etc) doesn't suffer from a lack of realism, it's just an alternate take on realism. Wing Chun is an alternate take on other Chinese kickboxing styles that are a little more like Western kickboxing styles.

It's the people who train Wing Chun in a vacuum that will suffer if they neglect cross training and pressure testing outside their personal comfort zone (which for many, but not all Chunners, is a huge, literally comfortable zone..).

There are already a slew of guys who combine Wing Chun into MMA. Guess what if they do it right (ie they don't get subbed or clobbered in under 10 seconds) it ends up looking like MMA, and not Siu Nim Tao or Chum Kiu.

[It is Fake]

Many chun schools do suffer from a lack of hard sparring and competition. As to the rest, it is mainly kung fu's insular arrogance, see above, as to why it is ridiculed. The biggest fix, grappling isn't necessary, is to get out of your comfort zone. Once upon a time, all of these school repeatedly competed, tested, reworked and rinse wash an repeat. They shared certain techniques, devised new strategies and evolved. Styles like the chun, there is enough evidence the nun story is not entirely true, were the result. When schools became a primary source of income, these guys used to be many things AND instructors, arts became insular and hiding techniques became the norm. Now, over a 80 years or so later chun, as well as other styles of kung fu, can be terrible.

When the opposite is done, you can actually see stylistic differences and kung fuesque looking kick boxing. Yes, you can see specific kung fu techniques.

[Raycetpfl]

Wing Chun doesn't suffer from either of those things. No art "suffers" from a lack of anything. Judo and BJJ don't suffer from lack of striking. Abstract art like Cubism (Picasso etc) doesn't suffer from a lack of realism, it's just an alternate take on realism. Wing Chun is an alternate take on other Chinese kickboxing styles that are a little more like Western kickboxing styles.

It's the people who train Wing Chun in a vacuum that will suffer if they neglect cross training and pressure testing outside their personal comfort zone (which for many, but not all Chunners, is a huge, literally comfortable zone..).

There are already a slew of guys who combine Wing Chun into MMA. Guess what if they do it right (ie they don't get subbed or clobbered in under 10 seconds) it ends up looking like MMA, and not Siu Nim Tao or Chum Kiu.

Are you wearing a lab coat? 'Cause generally people go head and slip one on before they drop that kind of science!

[W. Rabbit]

This is a name that comes up a lot when smart people discuss Wing Chun and MMA. Based on these and others I've seen this is the right way to be doing it, but this guy and his students get so much flak online from Chun purists, it's pathetic.

The instructor:

His student:

Want to see the insular arrogance of Chun first hand?

Note the votes on that second video (50-50???), even though it's a clear, cleancut, fast victory...that and the chimes of "NOT CHUN!" in the comments shows how deep the Chun rabbit hole goes.

Here's just one example of a Chun ignoramus, whose understanding of Chun apparently ranks up there with his ability to type and spell, in response to a supportive and positive comment about Josh Kaldani's dominant handling of his opponent...

Pierce Laveihle 5 months ago
+Fabio Stefanini Excuse me, but you are the naive one. Yes, there is good stance, timing, but I didn't saw a single Wing Chung technique, pac sao, tan sao, fuck sao, bong sao, non of that, I didn't even saw chain punching, and he puts de weight in the front leg. From a technical perspective that's not wing chung technic, maybe they use de concepts of the center line, but I don't see that either

[W. Rabbit]

LOL sorry but these comments are particularly ironic giving what we are discussing right now..

Do you think "Jacker thedude" might be someone we know? Now I have to dig...

jacker thedude 5 months ago
Yeah hi five brother! This destroys everything bullshido shows!

jacker thedude 5 months ago
Faith in humanity restored! Yes finally wing chun winning in mma here's my middle finger to fucking bullshido

[It is Fake]

Why dig? It is called cherry picking. Bullshido hated the chun, speaking in generalities, because idiots came here saying it was the ultimate blah blah blah blah blah. When someone came in an actually tried to be reasonable, discussions were had and there was limited crying. Let's not forget, cross training was bad and if you did you didn't have Teh REal _ing _un.

[Raycetpfl]

Why dig? It is called cherry picking. Bullshido hated the chun, speaking in generalities, because idiots came here saying it was the ultimate blah blah blah blah blah. When someone came in an actually tried to be reasonable, discussions were had and there was limited crying. Let's not forget, cross training was bad and if you did you didn't have Teh REal _ing _un.

Nobody wants to hear that nonsense. That same sort of thing is why Bravo earned so much hate for so long from the bjj community. "My style is the future and soon will take over the planet blah blah blah." If claims like that are made you better back it up. Bravo and his disciples have since backed off those claims (Ironically oNE of thE loudest of the disiples was fake belt Brandon Quick) . It sucks when people act that way because it can cloud the good things they have to offer. While not earth shattering they are pretty cool.

[kimjonghng]

Thanks W. Rabbit, this has been really informative to look at, I hadn't actually seen Alan Orr till you showed me this.

[laserleftfoot]

what ever happened to the real wing chun verses modified wing chun argument of the late 1980's. Did those two factions kiss and make up?

[wingchunx2z]

what ever happened to the real wing chun verses modified wing chun argument of the late 1980's. Did those two factions kiss and make up?

They came to meet my Sifu and realized that neither of them truly had the REAL Wing Chun.

War Grandmaster Swift!


/thread.

[laserleftfoot]

do tell, did your Sifu prevail? Or was it that the true wing chun'r and the modified wing chun'r realized they had no wing chun. Or was your Sifu a modified wing chun, or a true wing chun, and he convinced the other guy he had no wing chun?

I watched an Insanto's class when he was in playa del rey. Only thing that impressed me was that the instructor taught in the center of the students and not at the head of the class. Everyone could see what was going on. I think that the lowest ranking students should be nearest the instructor.

[Chili Pepper]

what ever happened to the real wing chun verses modified wing chun argument of the late 1980's. Did those two factions kiss and make up?

I expect the controversy was good for business for a while, but eventually nobody cared anymore so the chunners quietly let it fade into the background.