Why do TMAers hate on MMA? (stereotypes you've heard about combat sports)

[ksennin]

To get good at anything, you have to work at it. You can't JUST spend your time learning the parts of the system it has to be spent applying it as hard as possible. And you can't start creating your own style either, without putting in the work.
But that's where a lot of TMAers get lost, the work. They don't REALLY want to get hit, or suffer any of the consequences of fighting. They want to avoid all that, and so their idea of martial arts becomes all about avoidance. Then They watch pro fighting on TV and scoff with their Scotsman fallacies that "no TRUE martial artist would do that" etc.

Yeah, and a lot of the early martial arts propaganda emphasized precisely that negative aspect. Closely related to the myth of the unassuming, frail elderly master is the basic idea that martial arts are PRECISELY systems of purified knowledge derived from millennia-long fighting experience that you can learn in distilled, organized abstract form so that you do not have to go into the bother of all that distasteful physical rough-housing. Others did it already and you can get the resulting wisdom they accumulated without the blood and tears of empirical testing. It was, after all, ancient-battlefield-tested and all that. The too-deadly-to-test dogma plays right into it. Punching the air drilling is the perfect manifestation of this. The line air drills are perhaps partly a consequence of the standardization of training into group drills in army and government education systems, as opposed to more singular, one on one drills. But the "get the results from reading this book" salesmanship tactics are not that different from the actual dojo experiences under many TMA environs, and are all supported by that philosophy of abstract principles and ritualized reenactments being able to substitute for the dirty and uncomfortable reality that is best avoided.

A lot of the old looking down upon boxing and wrestling are related to that. The TMA with the esoteric knowledge felt like the civil engineer looking down on the "lowly" carpenter. They were the ones with the sophisticated answers while those poor others fumbled with primitive, cruder systems. While the truth was the opposite. The empiricists doing boxing, wrestling and other contact sports were polishing their systems into effectiveness, while the TMAs were holding on to distorted, overstylized, fragmented systems whose practicality was most likely suspect even in their original, "purer" forms. They were elitists hung up in sophist versions of Aristotelian logic while the cruder empiricists had moved on thru Russell, Boole, et all into actually applicable systems to sustain technology.

The old "art of fighting without fighting" nonsense became the sales pitch all these people bought into, and they still want to believe in it and worse, sell it to others.

[W. Rabbit]

The difference between TMA and modern Combat sports like BJJ is that BJJ respects the tradition without needlessly clinging to it. That is why some TMA is so bitter, they see guys like BJJ artist wearing cool and more practical gear, evolving the art and being invited to teach athletes and military/police. This use to be something TMA did. 20-30 years ago, servicemen were into learning Karate and TKD. Now its all about the BJJ and MMA.

If every TMA were honest, they would tell you there were things they wished their art included that it does not, but they are not willing to take the steps to add these improvements. You look at the old Karateka, guys like Gichin Funakoshi, they weren't scared to change their art when they found something more useful that their art didn't have. Someone along the way, everyone said "Ok, this is it, no more changing anything ever." And that is the core of the issue. These guys who spent their life learning TMA are watching were these other guys changing whatever they want, and being successful, MORE successful, at it. Being called on to teach self-defense and combat.

That being said, not all TMA are like that. Maybe of the best TMAs are the best because they explore other arts and incorporate them into their routine. Guys like Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris, for example. Lee studied Westerner boxing, considered much closer to a real fight than TMA, and used much of it in his training. Norris has been practicing BJJ for years, and even had the Machado Brothers on Walker: Texas Ranger. Look at bloggers like Iana Abernathy and KaratebyJesse, if you want an example of TMA who are willing to address the flaws of their art, and open to changing it. There is still some hope for TMA, give them a little time.

A lot of people get caught up with the idea of learning a TMA system and then being a figurehead who then transmits the system OR, some sort of scion who develops their own. A lot of that is probably self-serving, ego-driven behavior. Not all, but a lot. It's idolatry, and the desire to be an idol, which is even worse.

Most people don't get into MMA/BJJ to become the next Jesus Christ of MMA or BJJ (most). There is a lot of idol worship there too, BUT people don't just walk in because they want to be the next Anderson Silva. 999/1000 won't come close. Somehow, people enter MMA and BJJ with more reasonable expectations...

To get good at anything, you have to work at it. You can't JUST spend your time learning the parts of the system it has to be spent applying it as hard as possible. And you can't start creating your own style either, without putting in the work.

But that's where a lot of TMAers get lost, the work. They don't REALLY want to get hit, or suffer any of the consequences of fighting. They want to avoid all that, and so their idea of martial arts becomes all about avoidance. Then They watch pro fighting on TV and scoff with their Scotsman fallacies that "no TRUE martial artist would do that" etc.

And that's their issue right there. They don't respect the work that's been put in to what they're watching. They're dismissing people who spend thousand+ hours a year training and have taken and given more damage than "They" can even conceive.

Fuck that sort of "martial artist", they're the worst breed of all. They don't represent TMA per se, they just represent stupid.

[Cajun_Grappler]

The difference between TMA and modern Combat sports like BJJ is that BJJ respects the tradition without needlessly clinging to it. That is why some TMA is so bitter, they see guys like BJJ artist wearing cool and more practical gear, evolving the art and being invited to teach athletes and military/police. This use to be something TMA did. 20-30 years ago, servicemen were into learning Karate and TKD. Now its all about the BJJ and MMA.

If every TMA were honest, they would tell you there were things they wished their art included that it does not, but they are not willing to take the steps to add these improvements. You look at the old Karateka, guys like Gichin Funakoshi, they weren't scared to change their art when they found something more useful that their art didn't have. Someone along the way, everyone said "Ok, this is it, no more changing anything ever." And that is the core of the issue. These guys who spent their life learning TMA are watching were these other guys changing whatever they want, and being successful, MORE successful, at it. Being called on to teach self-defense and combat.

That being said, not all TMA are like that. Maybe of the best TMAs are the best because they explore other arts and incorporate them into their routine. Guys like Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris, for example. Lee studied Westerner boxing, considered much closer to a real fight than TMA, and used much of it in his training. Norris has been practicing BJJ for years, and even had the Machado Brothers on Walker: Texas Ranger. Look at bloggers like Iana Abernathy and KaratebyJesse, if you want an example of TMA who are willing to address the flaws of their art, and open to changing it. There is still some hope for TMA, give them a little time.

[Cajun_Grappler]

The difference between TMA and modern Combat sports like BJJ is that BJJ respects the tradition without needlessly clinging to it. That is why some TMA is so bitter, they see guys like BJJ artist wearing cool and more practical gear, evolving the art and being invited to teach athletes and military/police. This use to be something TMA did. 20-30 years ago, servicemen were into learning Karate and TKD. Now its all about the BJJ and MMA.

If every TMA were honest, they would tell you there were things they wished their art included that it does not, but they are not willing to take the steps to add these improvements. You look at the old Karateka, guys like Gichin Funakoshi, they weren't scared to change their art when they found something more useful that their art didn't have. Someone along the way, everyone said "Ok, this is it, no more changing anything ever." And that is the core of the issue. These guys who spent their life learning TMA are watching were these other guys changing whatever they want, and being successful, MORE successful, at it. Being called on to teach self-defense and combat.

That being said, not all TMA are like that. Maybe of the best TMAs are the best because they explore other arts and incorporate them into their routine. Guys like Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris, for example. Lee studied Westerner boxing, considered much closer to a real fight than TMA, and used much of it in his training. Norris has been practicing BJJ for years, and even had the Machado Brothers on Walker: Texas Ranger. Look at bloggers like Iana Abernathy and KaratebyJesse, if you want an example of TMA who are willing to address the flaws of their art, and open to changing it. There is still some hope for TMA, give them a little time.

[ashkelon]

True, but how many TMA'ers have this kind of exposure?
I'd gather with the cult-like elements of many, and we have seen that on bullshido, there would be quite a number of abuse cases if they would be more exposed to the public.

*raises hand

[Holy Moment]

I just bought one of those shirts signed by Severn himself.

[Holy Moment]

I love Black Belt magazine.

[ksennin]

At another recent event I was in the lockers helping one of the fighters warm up and get psyched up. A young guy from some karate organization saw me and was surprised to recognize me from the karate circles, and asked what was I doing here. When I explained he was surprised I was a part of the MMA scene as well (even if marginally, in truth). He and a couple of others had basically dragged their karate instructors in to come to the event. I had trained with both of those instructors in the past, and laughed that during the ooooold days, and the movie Bloodsport came out, we all expressed excitement at the idea of such tournaments and wished we could fight in one. And now here was the real thing, but now they had instead gone "This is too uncivilized. These people are just brawlers." They had just forgotten how they felt when they were young and fight-happy.

The kid actually begged me to please talk to them and remind them of this.

Seems to me that the younger generation is appreciative of the different venues of combat and frustrated by the stance of their teachers.

[ksennin]

Well, this was the first ever MMA fight here in Honduras over a decade ago.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhjn7i-JDks

I know both of the guys here. I still work out with them in different training groups.

The karate guy is a very serious practitioner, with real good skills, and is now a teacher (and a good one IMO). He was already a black belt and a point competition champion when this happened. You cannot see it well because of angles but he actually pulled back his first punch in the initial scramble after a mere tap because of the point fighting habits.

The grappler had been doing BJJ for a few months I think, and had done some judo previously, and was chosen because he was big and the karate guy out-weighted most other choices. BJJ was barely getting started here and the instructors' level was blue or purple at best I think. He is now a MUCH superior grappler, of course, and regularly schools me while barely keeping from yawning.

You can see this original fight was a showcase of how uncomfortable both were with the match, and even so, you see how it was just a matter of time for the ground game to decide it.

The karate guy has incorporated sprawling and decent bodylocks into his defense from what I last saw. He works out hard and can beat me up easily in stand up. I doubt I am good enough in the ground to overcome his superior strength, conditioning and improved defense. One of his students recently decided to fight in a local (and better staged) mma event, so I helped him get some ground game, and two months ago he went, dominated it with his stand up and then ended up winning on the ground with a kimura.

So a lot of the problems regarding MMA still remain mostly a matter of personal pride. I am sure this karate instructor would pick up newaza with ease and be as good at it as he is at standup. But he never contemplated going and becoming the pupil at the BJJ school of the guys who beat him. This original matchup still remains a... touchy subject.

[Holy Moment]

Response to double-leg takedown: Jump kick.

Living proof that not everybody fucking got it in one fell swoop.

[Holy Moment]

Black Belt magazine had a few interesting reactions to UFC 1:

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...074&highlight=

[ksennin]

I'm glad you shared it with them. I hope it hurts knowing that the target of their derision is better educated, better employed and more politically active than the vast majority of your TMA tools.

Much more fit, as well. I can count on one hand the number of karateka in their 40s who I know are still sparring hard.

[W. Rabbit]

A typical BJJ roll for me in a nutshell:

I See your Shootfighter death match, and raise you a Shootfighter Bolo vs Kreese deathmatch, with weapons.

Look at all the empty handed fighters stunned in awe. They were expecting shootfighting, obviously.

[ksennin]

I'm glad you shared it with them. I hope it hurts knowing that the target of their derision is better educated, better employed and more politically active than the vast majority of your TMA tools.

The silence has been deafening.

Funny thing is also that the karate teacher pictured looks to be Kunio Murayama, who I personally have trained under, and who I have never heard to particularly speak against MMA.

[Holy Moment]

Can we put this thread on Facebook, please? I think we could really use the valuable insight of people who liked our page without realizing what this site is about.