Why do TMAers hate on MMA? (stereotypes you've heard about combat sports)

[Moenstah]

I think kenjutsu is awesome and I'd love to study it but I'm not going to delude myself into thinking it's martial virtues are going to translate into real world combat effectiveness.

Well, it is still a big oak stick, so it might be replaced by a baseball/cricket bat.

Oh btw, I totally agreed with the rest of your post ;-) just putting in a perspective.

[ksennin]

I've never understood the TMA hatred of 'athletes'. Athletes are good at physical things and fighting is very physical. Being athletic is a good thing.

Well, one of the myths that was associated with martial arts was that a high enough level of technical skill would make much of the physical aspects unimportant. The image of the frail old master beating effortlessly athletic opponents thru his esoteric know-how was as close to actual superpowers the world seemed to get. People LOVE that imagery. That is why the general public was so impressed by slender Royce beating muscular opponents in the early UFC (as oppossed to martial artists being scared crapless by the forced realization of the importance of a ground game) without acknowledging that Royce was a good athlete as well and trained hard to do what he did. People in many TMA WANT to believe that myth of esoteric technique overcoming the mundane physicality, as it lets them BS themselves that they can be dangerous fighters despite their pot bellies and flaccid limbs just because they learned the secret katas.
Non-BS martial artists do know that conditioning is the most important technique, and that while drastic differences in skill can overcome some differences in physical power, there are limits at how these differentials can be significant.

[Kovacs]

Tell that to my eye.

What, did you get injured in your eye through TMA or do you mean tell you to your face?

I'm not being a smart-ass, I genuinely don't follow.

[traversnz]

Well, one of the myths that was associated with martial arts was that a high enough level of technical skill would make much of the physical aspects unimportant. The image of the frail old master beating effortlessly athletic opponents thru his esoteric know-how was as close to actual superpowers the world seemed to get. People LOVE that imagery. That is why the general public was so impressed by slender Royce beating muscular opponents in the early UFC (as oppossed to martial artists being scared crapless by the forced realization of the importance of a ground game) without acknowledging that Royce was a good athlete as well and trained hard to do what he did. People in many TMA WANT to believe that myth of esoteric technique overcoming the mundane physicality, as it lets them BS themselves that they can be dangerous fighters despite their pot bellies and flaccid limbs just because they learned the secret katas.
Non-BS martial artists do know that conditioning is the most important technique, and that while drastic differences in skill can overcome some differences in physical power, there are limits at how these differentials can be significant.

Funny, I'm one of those that has come full circle and no longer training in TMA for this reason - takes a bit of honesty with yourself that a lot of TMA hobbyists don't want to think about.
On paper, I must be a good martial artist beause I've been training for years, got various black belts and know some asian history / language.
In reality, I'm getting old and find it hard to keep up with the younger, more athletic guy when training in an alive manner. I love that - it keeps me grounded and reminds me its about the training and not my ego.
There's a Japanese term that TMA'ers ascribe to - kigurai (loosely translates as "nobility", or "strength or presence") - this is earned by hard work and is a result of what others think of you. The older I get, I see this more in people engaged in hard training and pushing themselves - the type of training that is becoming less common in TMA training.

[Kovacs]

Well, one of the myths that was associated with martial arts was that a high enough level of technical skill would make much of the physical aspects unimportant. The image of the frail old master beating effortlessly athletic opponents thru his esoteric know-how was as close to actual superpowers the world seemed to get. People LOVE that imagery. That is why the general public was so impressed by slender Royce beating muscular opponents in the early UFC (as oppossed to martial artists being scared crapless by the forced realization of the importance of a ground game) without acknowledging that Royce was a good athlete as well and trained hard to do what he did. People in many TMA WANT to believe that myth of esoteric technique overcoming the mundane physicality, as it lets them BS themselves that they can be dangerous fighters despite their pot bellies and flaccid limbs just because they learned the secret katas.
Non-BS martial artists do know that conditioning is the most important technique, and that while drastic differences in skill can overcome some differences in physical power, there are limits at how these differentials can be significant.

Fuck it, I just neg repped you by accident. Ignore it, I was actually agreeing with you.

[Omega Supreme]

What's wrong with your eye?

Athletic guy wanted to try out for our mma class. I asked him to show me a mounted armbar. He heel kicked me in the eye. Most guys I find "athletic" usually have a hard time learning technique. Just my opinion.

[NeilG]

Most guys I find "athletic" usually have a hard time learning technique. Just my opinion.

I find athletic guys most likely to quit. They've been successful all their lives at sports through natural ability, but sooner or later everyone hits that wall that simple athleticism won't compensate for. The natural athletes tend to quit out of frustration, whereas the ordinary types are used to struggling to get somewhere and are more likely to stick to it. Kendo is that martial art where the little old guy can clobber the big athletic one, and that's a big smack-down on the old ego for a lot of people.

[Raycetpfl]

I have found it's the athletic guys that way between 145 and 155 pounds that are an absolute bag of effing hammers. That body type is responsible for more cauliflower ear than any other group in my opinion.
Trying to get strong or fast people to use the techniques instead of their attributes is quite hard sometimes.

[ksennin]

Funny, I'm one of those that has come full circle and no longer training in TMA for this reason - takes a bit of honesty with yourself that a lot of TMA hobbyists don't want to think about.
On paper, I must be a good martial artist beause I've been training for years, got various black belts and know some asian history / language.
In reality, I'm getting old and find it hard to keep up with the younger, more athletic guy when training in an alive manner. I love that - it keeps me grounded and reminds me its about the training and not my ego.
There's a Japanese term that TMA'ers ascribe to - kigurai (loosely translates as "nobility", or "strength or presence") - this is earned by hard work and is a result of what others think of you. The older I get, I see this more in people engaged in hard training and pushing themselves - the type of training that is becoming less common in TMA training.

I still train what can be called TMA alongside MMA but I was lucky that the idea my teachers had (and I learned) was that TMA meant lots of hard training. Paraphrasing Musashi's Go Ri No Sho, each lesson simply ends with that axiom: train hard, train a lot. When we were exposed for example to Muay Thai, we did not get defensive and insecure and try to justify our training as better somehow, we simply acknowledged that those guys took what we did (punches, kicks, elbows, kness) to a higher level and trained and spar harder than us, and we should just emulate them as well as we could. Superior work should be admired and emulated, not resented.

I had the relative luck of acknowledging early on that I was not a natural athlete and was not likely to ever become a great martial artist. My teachers explicitly told me just that. That I managed to hang in there with the real bad-asses and endure their beatings as helpful moving punching bag was in my opinion proof that martial arts DID work, that hard work and technique did help narrow the gaps in natural ability and that fighting CAN be learned if enough work and dedication is put in.

I am getting close to 50 and have serious spine, knee and ankle injuries and there is simply no damn way I can keep up with younger athletic people even if I managed to stay at my top physical shape. I have greater knowledge of submissions when rolling for example, but my mobility is crap and I can easily be pinned by people with good guard-passing, side and north-south control/transitions. I surprise them with uncommon holds/locks sometimes but low-percentage techniques are called that for a reason. In stand-up and particularly in striking I can still keep up and even beat some of the young people I train with, but a short while back I was power-slammed so hard on my neck that I lost consciousness and stayed out while still holding the guy tight in my guard, so I am really wondering how much longer I can afford physically to spar in live fashion. Recently two guys fighting close to me while I held pads slammed their whole weight sideways against my knee and left me crippled for two months, so I may not come back from the next injury. But when you have done hard live sparring you do not really want to give it up. When comparing my physical experiences throughout my life I can honestly say I have had more great life-affirming fights that great anything else. It weighs on me heavily sometimes to think of how what I have worked for over the decades will eventually be lost completely after dwindling down by the reality of aging (INSERT BLADE RUNNER SOLILOQUY HERE) so hell, I can understand people WANTING to believe that they can become an untouchable Uieshiba-like master, but it would also be a disservice to all that past effort to give in to or justify in any way all that BS.

[ksennin]

Kendo is that martial art where the little old guy can clobber the big athletic one, and that's a big smack-down on the old ego for a lot of people.

And of course it is my luck that there is no real kendo instruction available in my country. There are some karate guys playing at it in another city but I am not convinced they know that much beyond what one can get in some dvd course. I have gotten dvds and slammed bokken about with other idiots like myself but I would not dare to think I know any real kendo.

[ksennin]

Fuck it, I just neg repped you by accident. Ignore it, I was actually agreeing with you.

Hey, my first NEG!
NO problem.

[ksennin]

I have found it's the athletic guys that way between 145 and 155 pounds that are an absolute bag of effing hammers. That body type is responsible for more cauliflower ear than any other group in my opinion. Trying to get strong or fast people to use the techniques instead of their attributes is quite hard sometimes.

The guy who broke my left ear 5 months ago during rolling was more like 170...

[NeilG]

And of course it is my luck that there is no real kendo instruction available in my country.

Where are you?

[The Cap]

Athletic guy wanted to try out for our mma class. I asked him to show me a mounted armbar. He heel kicked me in the eye. Most guys I find "athletic" usually have a hard time learning technique. Just my opinion.

Maybe you've been running into "complete athletes"? That's an old French insult that refers to someone who pursues all sports because he doesn't have the brain power to do anything else. I've seen clever athletic types pick up technique like nobody else; one bodybuilding ex-football star that came through our gym was a PHD candidate and a natural on the ground. Really nice guy. I hate him so much.

[ksennin]

Where are you?

San Pedro Sula, Honduras, Central America.

This is the sort of thing I get on facebook all of the time.

https://scontent-mia1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...70&oe=5681BCF9

The guy who posted this runs some local karate events and for a couple of years I would help out doing improvised demos at them. I would pick a couple of students of his and ask both to spar with me at once, or give one a bo and tell him to do attack drills at me while I held a jo or hanbo. Or I would show basic drills against various attacks. Then one time I was helping a training partner and friend prepare for a future mma fight, and I told him I was unsure about doing another demo that day since the variable quality of the students I could "borrow" meant the demos often looked like crap. So he volunteered to go with me and help me out. We showed up, donned mma gloves and did some full power drills and finished with some light sparring and some rolling. After that, I was not invited to the events again. Sometime later I was told they did not want to see that mma stuff again and I had become persona non grata.