Why do TMAers hate on MMA? (stereotypes you've heard about combat sports)

[It is Fake]

Dude. I've been here for ten fucking years and I'm getting old

Falling on deaf ears, as all of this applies to me.

You expect me to remember every conversation?

Yes.

[Devil]

Falling on deaf ears, as all of this applies to me.
Yes.

[BKR]

if you follow japanese tradition and you treat ippon as a symbolic death it becomes even more disrespectful.

i *really* dislike those who celebrate on the mat after victory, but i come off like "buzz killington" at the dojo if i say so, so i keep my mouth shut.

Fortunately, I get to make the rules about that at our dojo.

Celebrating off the mat is OK, on the mat, no way.

The way my teacher was, if I even smiled he would kick my ass...

[BKR]

_MA people hate on _MA people because of the Yin/Yang of aggression/passive aggression rotating around the pole of insecurity.

OK, that's funny, good one !

[BKR]

Those are good points about the celebrations. I prefer wins to be celebrated Fedor style - with a smile at most. And I hate to see pouty faces when people lose too.

I spent years training Japanese martial arts so I can understand where those perceptions come from. On the other hand, I think traditionalists need to be able to understand that when they look for people to behave a certain way on the mat, it's because they appreciate a set of values that is associated with martial arts training but really has nothing to do with anyone's actual martial skill.

I agree somewhat, if you are talking about purely physical skills.

[Devil]

I agree somewhat, if you are talking about purely physical skills.

Care to expound?

[Eddie Hardon]

Fortunately, I get to make the rules about that at our dojo.

Celebrating off the mat is OK, on the mat, no way.

The way my teacher was, if I even smiled he would kick my ass...

We were told by our Founder to watch students behaviour throughout including off the mat. If we noticed someone behave excessively, we should keep it in Mind. If they were subsequently involved in a drawn match, then we should cast the deciding vote for the better behaved.

Which also reminds me that we also watch the parents exhorting their children to 'kill them!'. No, we don't like that. It WILL tell against the student. Quite right too.

[BKR]

Care to expound?

Emotional control is an important aspect of "combat skills". Premature celebration could be fatal.

[BKR]

I think that all "martial arts" have degraded over time, mostly as methods of warfare changed from one on one fighting to mass engagements of men (with hand weapons), to firearms, and other weapons (artillery). This is related to the "TMA" vs "modern martial arts/combat sports" thing. Combat involved weapons, with unarmed methods being subsidiary to armed ones.

I happened in Japan, see the "bujutsu" to "budo" to post-meji sport oriented arts (Judo, Karate-do, to some extent Kendo).

It happened in "the West" as well, with what were training methods changing to sport contests. I'll defer to the experts on WMA on this, just saying I've read fairly extensively on the subject.

From what I can gather, it happened in China as well. Again, I'll defer to those more knowledgeable than me on that.

What we call TMAs (and I think it's safe to say most would be Eastern oriented, Japan, China, Korea), are remnants of ancient methods related to weapons and to a lesser degree, unarmed fighting.

The Japanese experience of going from bujutsu (actual/real fighting methods) to budo (martial way, studying a martial art for personal/spiritual development) to modern combat sports probably pretty much encapsulates it in all cultures.

[Devil]

Emotional control is an important aspect of "combat skills". Premature celebration could be fatal.

I agree that emotional control is an important part of combat skills but I think it's a huge stretch to try to use the premature celebration argument as justification for what I see as nothing more than an affinity for Japanese standards of behavior.

People who celebrate after a victory in a sporting contest are not celebrating prematurely. They're celebrating when the contest is over.

[NeilG]

I happened in Japan, see the "bujutsu" to "budo" to post-meji sport oriented arts (Judo, Karate-do, to some extent Kendo).

Kendo more than the other two actually, as the whole point of modern kendo is supposed to be as an educational/cultural tool. For that matter, kenjutsu veered towards budo back in the Tokugawa period.

One-page history of kendo, if anyone cares.

[BKR]

I agree that emotional control is an important part of combat skills but I think it's a huge stretch to try to use the premature celebration argument as justification for what I see as nothing more than an affinity for Japanese standards of behavior.

People who celebrate after a victory in a sporting contest are not celebrating prematurely. They're celebrating when the contest is over.

Sure, I get that. I'm struggling to put this succinctly.

If combat sports is the model/training method for becoming proficient at "real fighting" (or at least part of it), then the emotional control aspects that may save your life/limb in a "real encounter" are important.

So the question becomes, when is it OK to celebrate, leaving out considerations of sportsmanship or budo standards of symbolic death. When is the "match" symbolic of a "real fight", over ?

I'm not sure how to approach the "Japanese standards" thing. I suppose it's a matter of symbolism. The match area is symbolic of the battlefield.

In modern combat sports, perhaps once the match is over, what was the battlefield is now a safe area, perhaps.

So the "celebration" would be safe in that case.

The big celebrations we see in modern MMA and boxing are are related to the fact they are seen as pure sporting events, really devoid of martial content, and that's a cultural thing. It's entertainment, pure and simple, for the spectators. Neither Judo nor Kendo (the two I'm most familiar with, one from practice, the other from reading and knowing a few kendoka over the years) was ever intended to be for spectators, but for the further training of the competitors. Different context, different standards.

[BKR]

Kendo more than the other two actually, as the whole point of modern kendo is supposed to be as an educational/cultural tool. For that matter, kenjutsu veered towards budo back in the Tokugawa period.

One-page history of kendo, if anyone cares.

After Tokugawa Iyesu pacified Japan (for the most part) after the battle of Sekigahara, is when ALL the Japanese martial arts starting heading towards budo-hood. It's also, I think, when a lot of the codification/formalization of the different ryu happened as well. Peace brought on the decline of the purely martially oriented methods, and then "commoner" level arts were developed.

I mean, even in Japan battles changed from archery/single "call em out" combat, to mass engagements, to mass engagements with firearms and artillery. Nobody was giving footsoldiers/ashigaru the specialized formalized training we see in Tokugawa era bujutsu and budo.

The same thing happened in China, and the West, I'm pretty sure.

[Devil]

Sure, I get that. I'm struggling to put this succinctly.

If combat sports is the model/training method for becoming proficient at "real fighting" (or at least part of it), then the emotional control aspects that may save your life/limb in a "real encounter" are important.

So the question becomes, when is it OK to celebrate, leaving out considerations of sportsmanship or budo standards of symbolic death. When is the "match" symbolic of a "real fight", over ?

I'm not sure how to approach the "Japanese standards" thing. I suppose it's a matter of symbolism. The match area is symbolic of the battlefield.

In modern combat sports, perhaps once the match is over, what was the battlefield is now a safe area, perhaps.

So the "celebration" would be safe in that case.

The big celebrations we see in modern MMA and boxing are are related to the fact they are seen as pure sporting events, really devoid of martial content, and that's a cultural thing. It's entertainment, pure and simple, for the spectators. Neither Judo nor Kendo (the two I'm most familiar with, one from practice, the other from reading and knowing a few kendoka over the years) was ever intended to be for spectators, but for the further training of the competitors. Different context, different standards.

I just can't agree here. A mat or a ring or a cage is not a battlefield and I see no value in viewing it as such. I don't see what you gain from that. There are customs that happen in sport that certainly apply to real fighting, like "protect yourself at all times." But those things are something everybody who competes must practice, whether they view the competition area as a symbolic battlefield or not.

And I completely disagree that MMA and boxing are devoid of martial content. They're chock full of martial content but it's martial content that Asiaphiles are reluctant to acknowledge because it doesn't fit their narrow picture of what martial arts and martial artists should look like.

[W. Rabbit]

It's funny the term "sportsmanship" is exactly what TMAers and MMAers alike seem to be missing when they dog on each other.

You'd think a TMA class that espouses dojo etiquette or kwoon mo duk (martial virtue) would teach respect for the modern sport variants of various martial arts. Instead, some TMA schools teach the total opposite. Then they hit a dilemma of identity when their TMA meets sport and the sport contestant succeeds because they train with more focus.

You'd also think an MMA class that teaches respect for "what works" should include "respect for what has always worked", and thus a respect for the rich martial traditions of various cultures. Instead, some MMA schools teach the total opposite (that those rich martial traditions are garbage to be forgotten). They also hit a dilemma when they meet someone they initially peg as "traditionalist", but who totally understands MMA and how the MMA guy trains, AND trains to deal with MMA.

It's important I think to keep in mind that most of the UFC folk that make waves for TMA....that's 10+ year old bullshit in many regards. It's been done to death so much, even MMA people are now defending their various TMA.

I think more MMA people should defend TMA while motivating TMA to meet their standards, and I think more TMA people should shut the fuck up and train like MMA folks do, and everything will balance itself in time.