Why do TMAers hate on MMA? (stereotypes you've heard about combat sports)

[goodlun]

The meat head thing is what I find most hilarious.
A lot of the Sport Combat Martial Artist I know are fairly intelligent.

[jspeedy]

I think the MMA fanboys and guys that casually half ass train are the ones that create a bad rep for sport based martial arts. You are never gonna get a TMA guy to come around to your way of thinking If you tell them TMA is completely useless and issue blanket statements. You have idiots that rarely train go around and claim to train ufc and talking shit to everyone. Than you have dumbass TMA guys that see these douche bags and aren't smart enough to realize that everyone in MMA is not like this. Intelligent discussion is the answer imo.

Sport based ma is a scientific approach to fighting. You set your controls (rules) and experiment and see what works. Others peer review the process via competition and validate those results. You accept that you can never accurately simulate a real self defense encounter and create an artificial environment where you test what you can. TMA on the other hand is often a faith based approach. These guys fail to create a testable hypothesis so you can't prove or disprove that a technique works.

[W. Rabbit]

I was talking to my friend earlier who has his own FB martial arts group (most of them do TMA) and I noticed. Why do so many Traditional Martial Artists hate on Combat sports like MMA, Boxing, Kickboxing, BJJ, wrestling, and SAMBO so much?

He told me how real martial artists don't fight for money (Apparently everyone in combat sports is only in it for money, passion doesn't exist for a Combat sports athlete)

Then he tells me that all combat fighters are egotistical, and brute fighters but not real talented martial artists.

"A better martial artist isn't a better fighter. You can do martial arts and get beat up by a non-trained thug in the streets and still be a better martial artist, martial arts isn't about fighting"

Yet these same people avoid talking about TKD and Karate and their ruled competitions.

"Western martial art aren't real martial arts", etc
Why do TMAers think we're all brute meatheads? who started this trend? lol

Politics. And like most political problems, it requires all of us at the grassroots level to solve it by sharing knowledge and experience, not by clinging to cliches and our own opinions.

I think "TMAers" who are indeed strict "TMAers" think poorly of MMA because of how they were treated in the 1990's and beyond (like shit), especially in MMA mass media, and especially by proponents and figureheads of that media talking out of their ass in promotion of their new sport, as if everything that came before was a big lie and they were the new harbingers of "the truth"...almost like bunch of a politicians. It's no lie that success in the ring (or street) can lead to boasting not only by the victors but their supporters, and it's only taken about 20 years for "peace" to finally form between these factions, largely due to the personal diplomacy of people that enjoy and respect both new and old forms of training. Today you have UFC stars that respect and train in very traditional ways, and it didn't thwart their technique at all. You also have plenty of "TMAers" who do respect and even cross train in modern gyms, with equipment, spar, the whole shebang. So, the whole "us vs them" concept is flawed, outdated, and for the most part an echo of past ego and stupidity (on the parts of both factions).

I liked Omega's and even Devil's response but I can distill it down into the simple fact that this phenom is not really something unique to "old school" v "new school" MA. It's about taking sides, to belong to a crew that will have your back or take your side when "it's on". Unfortunately whereas in the old days this sort of nonsense was settled between schools directly, nowadays most of it is verbal, and over the internet, and almost all of it stems from the bad blood caused by MMA and BJJ proponents in the first decade of UFC, and the INEVITABLE counter-response of TMAers saying "well... if you're going to be douches about this, so will we". And that was that.

It's a tale as old as time: two rival camps, two ideologies, and there is significant bad karma returning to both constantly largely due to their own making. Zealotry to TMA is pretty much the same thing as zealotry to MMA: being arrogant and stupid for assuming that your way is "the way". In MA it has pseudo-religious fervor, largely the fault of idol-worship of both TMA and MMA notables.

The key to peace between tribes is the acceptance that neither has all the answers.

MMA might be a very effective way of learning combat, but unless you realize it sits on the shoulders of 4,000 years of martial arts, you're really just enjoying the cream on top, without savoring the delicious, complex brew underneath it all. MMA is loaded with TMA knowledge, of that I have zero doubt. But MMA is no spring chicken now and it's falling into various "TMA ways"... we see all the bullshido, the ranks for sale, the people claiming to be superior to other people/arts, hero worship...

On the other side of the fence, many TMA have fallen into a state of disrepair that is already affecting MMA, merely for being so old. To cling to and ensconce in TMA, while making sport and MMA your enemy, is to weaken and sit utterly in ignorance in a place of comfort. As Devil say, MMA does TMA better because they take things more seriously than most TMA has taken itself in a long time.

With that I'll leave you this relevant song about choosing sides and why it's stupid. Fuck MMA vs TMA...pick a battle actually worth fighting.

Us, and them
And after all we're only ordinary men.
Me, and you.
God only knows it's not what we would choose to do.
Forward he cried from the rear
and the front rank died.
And the general sat and the lines on the map
moved from side to side.
Black and blue
And who knows which is which and who is who.
Up and down.
But in the end it's only round and round.
Haven't you heard it's a battle of words
The poster bearer cried.
Listen son, said the man with the gun
There's room for you inside.

[Ulsteryank]

Do most of them not know that a lot of us come from 'traditional' backgrounds? I like putting on pajamas and bowing now and again as it's a familiar side that I miss not present in strictly MMA training, but I think a lot of those guys who didn't evolve, or never ventured, don't like their work and worth to be lost so they're better off faking. The conditioning involved in combat sports probably isn't worth the effort to those that just want to show up for an hour, not break too much of a sweat, or starting over in something they're not familiar with.

I'm all for getting rid of the "traditional" label in martial arts as it's not helping in the general progression of martial arts. I've noticed that the distinction is muddying waters that are making the younger fighters and MMA practitioners not want to identify with being 'martial artists' because of traditional stereotypes, not realising sport and competition play their parts as well.

[NeilG]

I think a lot of the traditionalists don't like the attitudes and the showboating of the MMA athletes you see on TV. It goes against the "walk softly but carry a big stick" ideals of many in traditional JMA, not to mention Japanese culture in general. I have had 7th dan kendoka apologize for their inadequacies as part of their closing remarks at seminars where they have instructed.

In kendo you can get a point nullified by celebrating it in any way including a little fist pump, and I agree with that. I'm also not happy with the current state of judo with its lack of etiquette and over-the-top celebrating. I find this hard to reconcile with my enjoyment of watching MMA, but I rationalize it this way: I view kendo and judo as budo, but MMA is just fighting.

[BKR]

I think a lot of the traditionalists don't like the attitudes and the showboating of the MMA athletes you see on TV. It goes against the "walk softly but carry a big stick" ideals of many in traditional JMA, not to mention Japanese culture in general. I have had 7th dan kendoka apologize for their inadequacies as part of their closing remarks at seminars where they have instructed.

In kendo you can get a point nullified by celebrating it in any way including a little fist pump, and I agree with that. I'm also not happy with the current state of judo with its lack of etiquette and over-the-top celebrating. I find this hard to reconcile with my enjoyment of watching MMA, but I rationalize it this way: I view kendo and judo as budo, but MMA is just fighting.

I too have a hard time with the celebrating on the mat after winning a Judo match. Some of the younger guys (funny, it's not the women, but I won't say never on that) want to do the whole pro football/soccer whatever celebration antics.

I think it's just poor sportsmanship, let alone not Budo. Generally disrespectful to one's opponent for sure.

I do get the adrenaline rush from winning...it's hard to control the exuberance for sure, but doing so I think is a good practice.

[Ming Loyalist]

I think it's just poor sportsmanship, let alone not Budo. Generally disrespectful to one's opponent for sure.

if you follow japanese tradition and you treat ippon as a symbolic death it becomes even more disrespectful.

i *really* dislike those who celebrate on the mat after victory, but i come off like "buzz killington" at the dojo if i say so, so i keep my mouth shut.

[Permalost]

_MA people hate on _MA people because of the Yin/Yang of aggression/passive aggression rotating around the pole of insecurity.

[NeilG]

if you follow japanese tradition and you treat ippon as a symbolic death it becomes even more disrespectful.

This is the way we think in kendo. You don't cavort like an idiot after you've just killed your opponent.

[Devil]

Those are good points about the celebrations. I prefer wins to be celebrated Fedor style - with a smile at most. And I hate to see pouty faces when people lose too.

I spent years training Japanese martial arts so I can understand where those perceptions come from. On the other hand, I think traditionalists need to be able to understand that when they look for people to behave a certain way on the mat, it's because they appreciate a set of values that is associated with martial arts training but really has nothing to do with anyone's actual martial skill.

[JohnnyCache]

I think people are threatened by competence. I get this in daily life, sometimes, because by dint of simple hugeness I get into conversations with a lot of people about what I call the "inner viking"

which is essentially the notion that if the shit really hit the fan, be it in a fight or generally, they'd inexplicably tap some reservoir of character and ability they believe they have deep inside.

Like the song says, "I'm not a coward; I've just never been tested; I like to think if I was I would pass"

Traditional trappings classes also sometimes sell themselves, vis a vis other adults, what they are selling parents vis a vis children.

As an adult, I don't want to *talk about* respect or discipline on a regular basis. If I come to them, it will be by example, not by lecture.

[Permalost]

I think traditionalists need to be able to understand that when they look for people to behave a certain way on the mat, it's because they appreciate a set of values that is associated with martial arts training but really has nothing to do with anyone's actual martial skill.

Traditionalists are also a lot more likely to believe in an overarching martial arts respect culture of bowing, acting Japanese etc that transcends styles, and expect everyone to adhere to a code that they think everyone else tacitly agreed.

[NeilG]

I think traditionalists need to be able to understand that when they look for people to behave a certain way on the mat, it's because they appreciate a set of values that is associated with martial arts training but really has nothing to do with anyone's actual martial skill.

I view a lack of manners and respect as something that has been missing from someone's training, where in my view training should encompass more than just acquiring martial skill. I fully recognize that there are many people who can kick my ass with or without the manners that I value.

[It is Fake]

Lately I've been chewing on the idea that we'd be much better off if we did away with the term "TMA". It allows shitty martial artists to hide behind weak training as if it's a point of honor. "Well, fuck you MMA meatheads. I'm an honorable traditional martial artist so your argument is invalid." We should acknowledge only two categories of martial arts training. Good training and shit training.

LOL.

You need the threads? We've discussed this a number of times. Hell, I am pretty certain you were in one of the threads.

I view a lack of manners and respect as something that has been missing from someone's training, where in my view training should encompass more than just acquiring martial skill. .

I view it "as something that has been missing from someone's" upbringing. I view training, in most cases, as reinforcement of your own value system and upbringing. Raised to be polite, it is reinforced in or through training. If you are a douche you learn to mask it, but inevitable remain a douche.

[Devil]

lLOL.

You need the threads? We've discussed this a number of times. Hell, I am pretty certain you were in one of the threads.

Dude. I've been here for ten fucking years and I'm getting old. You expect me to remember every conversation? I repeat my stories. That's what old people do.