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Why do TMAers hate on MMA? (stereotypes you've heard about combat sports)

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  • Ulsteryank
    replied
    Do most of them not know that a lot of us come from 'traditional' backgrounds? I like putting on pajamas and bowing now and again as it's a familiar side that I miss not present in strictly MMA training, but I think a lot of those guys who didn't evolve, or never ventured, don't like their work and worth to be lost so they're better off faking. The conditioning involved in combat sports probably isn't worth the effort to those that just want to show up for an hour, not break too much of a sweat, or starting over in something they're not familiar with.

    I'm all for getting rid of the "traditional" label in martial arts as it's not helping in the general progression of martial arts. I've noticed that the distinction is muddying waters that are making the younger fighters and MMA practitioners not want to identify with being 'martial artists' because of traditional stereotypes, not realising sport and competition play their parts as well.

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  • W. Rabbit
    replied
    Originally posted by big maclol View Post
    I was talking to my friend earlier who has his own FB martial arts group (most of them do TMA) and I noticed. Why do so many Traditional Martial Artists hate on Combat sports like MMA, Boxing, Kickboxing, BJJ, wrestling, and SAMBO so much?

    He told me how real martial artists don't fight for money (Apparently everyone in combat sports is only in it for money, passion doesn't exist for a Combat sports athlete)

    Then he tells me that all combat fighters are egotistical, and brute fighters but not real talented martial artists.

    "A better martial artist isn't a better fighter. You can do martial arts and get beat up by a non-trained thug in the streets and still be a better martial artist, martial arts isn't about fighting"

    Yet these same people avoid talking about TKD and Karate and their ruled competitions.

    "Western martial art aren't real martial arts", etc
    Why do TMAers think we're all brute meatheads? who started this trend? lol
    Politics. And like most political problems, it requires all of us at the grassroots level to solve it by sharing knowledge and experience, not by clinging to cliches and our own opinions.

    I think "TMAers" who are indeed strict "TMAers" think poorly of MMA because of how they were treated in the 1990's and beyond (like shit), especially in MMA mass media, and especially by proponents and figureheads of that media talking out of their ass in promotion of their new sport, as if everything that came before was a big lie and they were the new harbingers of "the truth"...almost like bunch of a politicians. It's no lie that success in the ring (or street) can lead to boasting not only by the victors but their supporters, and it's only taken about 20 years for "peace" to finally form between these factions, largely due to the personal diplomacy of people that enjoy and respect both new and old forms of training. Today you have UFC stars that respect and train in very traditional ways, and it didn't thwart their technique at all. You also have plenty of "TMAers" who do respect and even cross train in modern gyms, with equipment, spar, the whole shebang. So, the whole "us vs them" concept is flawed, outdated, and for the most part an echo of past ego and stupidity (on the parts of both factions).

    I liked Omega's and even Devil's response but I can distill it down into the simple fact that this phenom is not really something unique to "old school" v "new school" MA. It's about taking sides, to belong to a crew that will have your back or take your side when "it's on". Unfortunately whereas in the old days this sort of nonsense was settled between schools directly, nowadays most of it is verbal, and over the internet, and almost all of it stems from the bad blood caused by MMA and BJJ proponents in the first decade of UFC, and the INEVITABLE counter-response of TMAers saying "well... if you're going to be douches about this, so will we". And that was that.

    It's a tale as old as time: two rival camps, two ideologies, and there is significant bad karma returning to both constantly largely due to their own making. Zealotry to TMA is pretty much the same thing as zealotry to MMA: being arrogant and stupid for assuming that your way is "the way". In MA it has pseudo-religious fervor, largely the fault of idol-worship of both TMA and MMA notables.

    The key to peace between tribes is the acceptance that neither has all the answers.

    MMA might be a very effective way of learning combat, but unless you realize it sits on the shoulders of 4,000 years of martial arts, you're really just enjoying the cream on top, without savoring the delicious, complex brew underneath it all. MMA is loaded with TMA knowledge, of that I have zero doubt. But MMA is no spring chicken now and it's falling into various "TMA ways"... we see all the bullshido, the ranks for sale, the people claiming to be superior to other people/arts, hero worship...

    On the other side of the fence, many TMA have fallen into a state of disrepair that is already affecting MMA, merely for being so old. To cling to and ensconce in TMA, while making sport and MMA your enemy, is to weaken and sit utterly in ignorance in a place of comfort. As Devil say, MMA does TMA better because they take things more seriously than most TMA has taken itself in a long time.

    With that I'll leave you this relevant song about choosing sides and why it's stupid. Fuck MMA vs TMA...pick a battle actually worth fighting.



    Us, and them
    And after all we're only ordinary men.
    Me, and you.
    God only knows it's not what we would choose to do.
    Forward he cried from the rear
    and the front rank died.
    And the general sat and the lines on the map
    moved from side to side.
    Black and blue
    And who knows which is which and who is who.
    Up and down.
    But in the end it's only round and round.
    Haven't you heard it's a battle of words
    The poster bearer cried.
    Listen son, said the man with the gun
    There's room for you inside.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 8/24/2015 9:11am, .

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  • jspeedy
    replied
    I think the MMA fanboys and guys that casually half ass train are the ones that create a bad rep for sport based martial arts. You are never gonna get a TMA guy to come around to your way of thinking If you tell them TMA is completely useless and issue blanket statements. You have idiots that rarely train go around and claim to train ufc and talking shit to everyone. Than you have dumbass TMA guys that see these douche bags and aren't smart enough to realize that everyone in MMA is not like this. Intelligent discussion is the answer imo.

    Sport based ma is a scientific approach to fighting. You set your controls (rules) and experiment and see what works. Others peer review the process via competition and validate those results. You accept that you can never accurately simulate a real self defense encounter and create an artificial environment where you test what you can. TMA on the other hand is often a faith based approach. These guys fail to create a testable hypothesis so you can't prove or disprove that a technique works.

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  • goodlun
    replied
    The meat head thing is what I find most hilarious.
    A lot of the Sport Combat Martial Artist I know are fairly intelligent.

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  • Devil
    replied
    Originally posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    Personally I fall on both sides of this coin:

    My traditional side rolls its eyes when I get youtube idealogical sport orientated "athletes" shutting off the idea that TMA has any worth.

    My sport combat style rolls its eyes when the TMA guys start using cognitive dissonance as a reason why sport styles are (insert blank).


    Both sides have their dogma. Very tedious.

    Exactly. This is why we should just forego all the bullshit and stop distinguishing between TMA and modern martial arts. Just good training and bad training.

    Here's the way I see it. All the pajama wearing dojo princesses believe that there's more to martial arts than fighting. To them it's about enlightenment and whatnot. And you know what? I agree with them.

    And that enlightenment comes from hard training. From pushing yourself. From stepping outside of your comfort zone. From getting your ass kicked. From bleeding and nursing injuries. From proving your ability to survive while you're under fire.

    There's nothing non-traditional about good training. Modern sport athletes are practicing traditional martial arts. They're just practicing them better.

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  • Azatdawn
    replied
    Originally posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    Personally I fall on both sides of this coin:

    My traditional side rolls its eyes when I get youtube idealogical sport orientated "athletes" shutting off the idea that TMA has any worth.

    My sport combat style rolls its eyes when the TMA guys start using cognitive dissonance as a reason why sport styles are (insert blank).


    Both sides have their dogma. Very tedious.
    Typical nuanced MMA-meathead delusional TMA answer.

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  • Omega Supreme
    replied
    Personally I fall on both sides of this coin:

    My traditional side rolls its eyes when I get youtube idealogical sport orientated "athletes" shutting off the idea that TMA has any worth.

    My sport combat style rolls its eyes when the TMA guys start using cognitive dissonance as a reason why sport styles are (insert blank).


    Both sides have their dogma. Very tedious.

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  • ashkelon
    replied
    They also feel superior because of the perceived philosophical aspect, which puts them above "mere sports".
    Which is funny cause they usually don't know shit about eastern philosophy.

    That said though, most experienced guys I know do respect combat arts and accept that they don't have the same fighting ability, even if a level of delusion remains.

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  • Ke?poFist
    replied
    I often hear that sport martial arts are for meat-heads and athletes.

    Anyone who doesn't think sport arts possess nuanced technique and detail has never rolled with a high level Jiu-Jitsu practitioner. Even after all these years, I am humbled on the mat, and made to feel like a scrub by some of my training partners, let alone world class champions. All the kata perfection and bunkai study in the world doesn't compare to proficiency of a black belt setting up an armbar that you see coming, but still cannot stop.

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  • FinalLegion
    replied
    You know why TMAers hate on 'modern' or 'combat' sports/arts?

    Because the modern martial artist has remembered what those egotistical fucksticks have forgotten: that the term 'martial arts' has the word MARTIAL. They prance around doing all their 'traditional' movements and techniques that are not combat effective in the slightest. Why? Because they study at schools and within systems that do not teach their students how to translate traditional techniques and methods into modern effectiveness. They do not train with appropriate aliveness They believe that the reality of combat is what they see in well choreographed martial arts movies. They pat themselves on the back for keeping a 'traditon' alive and think themselves true and honorable warriors but, in truth, they are little more victims waiting to happen.

    I don't believe there is anything wrong with studying 'traditional' martial arts; for example, I think kenjutsu is awesome and I'd love to study it but I'm not going to delude myself into thinking it's martial virtues are going to translate into real world combat effectiveness. Certainly traditional helps can be helpful in conditioning the body and increasing one's awareness and perceptiveness but those things alone do not win a fight. There are also philosophical and even spiritual aspects to training in the martial arts but again those elements don't win a fight. They can help you avoid a fight, diffuse a situation, etc. and that is helpful...but if it comes down to blows than the guy who is double legging you so he can GnP you isn't going to give a fuck about how enlightened you are.

    Not all TMAers are of this type. The problem is that too many of them are of this type. They live in the fantasy that they've seen in the media they devour...from anime to samurai drama, from video games to martial arts movies. They try to consciously live in that reality...but the intrusion of the true reality breaks that fantasy and it pisses them off.

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  • Bayonet
    replied
    The worst part is, most of these ponytailed sperg-cases will happily mouth off about their favorite legendary master who would take on any style, travel the world to find new challenges, learn new ways to fight, etc.

    But when you point out that that's exactly what competitive fighters do, they clam up and change the subject.

    Most of the people who go into non-sparring martial arts just want some sort of Walter Mitty ego cocoon.

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  • ghost55
    replied
    Originally posted by Devil View Post
    Lately I've been chewing on the idea that we'd be much better off if we did away with the term "TMA". It allows shitty martial artists to hide behind weak training as if it's a point of honor. "Well, fuck you MMA meatheads. I'm an honorable traditional martial artist so your argument is invalid." We should acknowledge only two categories of martial arts training. Good training and shit training.
    I would be very okay with this.

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  • PartialArts
    replied
    I think it comes down to insecurity. A lot of TMA practitioners don't train to anywhere near the level that a combat sport practitioner will, but they really want to believe the hype about whichever system they practise. Furthermore, I think in the rush to try and get students, teachers of TMA will often throw terms such as 'reality based' and 'practical' into their marketing spiel, and then have their students practise in ways which are so removed from reality that it's not even worth joking about, IE 1/2/3 step sparring in karate.

    I practise karate, and I know some of the guys there have a real dim view of MMA, because it's 'only a sport'. They look at something like BJJ and conclude that it's merely a pair of guys grinding on each other on the deck, without actually checking out the techniques that are being put into practise, or acknowledging the hard work that they've put in learning them. They assume that because it's a sporting contest, that their 'traditional' style would undoubtedly prove the winner.

    A lot of traditional guys never test what they learn, never try applying it under pressure and just assume "It'll work when I need it". For example, I also practise classical Japanese martial arts, my school has a very loose affiliation to the Bujinkan (as in my instructor used to train under the Booj, until he realised how shitty they are. He dropped all the ninja stuff and decided just to research the samurai side of things), and earlier in the year we attended a seminar in Chester. The guy teaching was a 15th dan, Steffen Frohlich, and it was terrible. So many of the practitioners were massively out of shape and practising things which have no basis in reality. They'd then say things like, "Oh, this'd work on an mma guy, they'd never expect it". The sheer ignorance on display was pretty scary.

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  • Devil
    replied
    Lately I've been chewing on the idea that we'd be much better off if we did away with the term "TMA". It allows shitty martial artists to hide behind weak training as if it's a point of honor. "Well, fuck you MMA meatheads. I'm an honorable traditional martial artist so your argument is invalid." We should acknowledge only two categories of martial arts training. Good training and shit training.

    Leave a comment:


  • judoka01
    replied
    You already know the answer to this. Its easier on their egos if they just do an easy TMA than do something that requires strength, conditioning, technique etc.

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