Why do TMAers hate on MMA? (stereotypes you've heard about combat sports)

[traversnz]

Well, one of the myths that was associated with martial arts was that a high enough level of technical skill would make much of the physical aspects unimportant. The image of the frail old master beating effortlessly athletic opponents thru his esoteric know-how was as close to actual superpowers the world seemed to get. People LOVE that imagery. That is why the general public was so impressed by slender Royce beating muscular opponents in the early UFC (as oppossed to martial artists being scared crapless by the forced realization of the importance of a ground game) without acknowledging that Royce was a good athlete as well and trained hard to do what he did. People in many TMA WANT to believe that myth of esoteric technique overcoming the mundane physicality, as it lets them BS themselves that they can be dangerous fighters despite their pot bellies and flaccid limbs just because they learned the secret katas.
Non-BS martial artists do know that conditioning is the most important technique, and that while drastic differences in skill can overcome some differences in physical power, there are limits at how these differentials can be significant.

Funny, I'm one of those that has come full circle and no longer training in TMA for this reason - takes a bit of honesty with yourself that a lot of TMA hobbyists don't want to think about.
On paper, I must be a good martial artist beause I've been training for years, got various black belts and know some asian history / language.
In reality, I'm getting old and find it hard to keep up with the younger, more athletic guy when training in an alive manner. I love that - it keeps me grounded and reminds me its about the training and not my ego.
There's a Japanese term that TMA'ers ascribe to - kigurai (loosely translates as "nobility", or "strength or presence") - this is earned by hard work and is a result of what others think of you. The older I get, I see this more in people engaged in hard training and pushing themselves - the type of training that is becoming less common in TMA training.

[Kovacs]

Tell that to my eye.

What, did you get injured in your eye through TMA or do you mean tell you to your face?

I'm not being a smart-ass, I genuinely don't follow.

[ksennin]

I've never understood the TMA hatred of 'athletes'. Athletes are good at physical things and fighting is very physical. Being athletic is a good thing.

Well, one of the myths that was associated with martial arts was that a high enough level of technical skill would make much of the physical aspects unimportant. The image of the frail old master beating effortlessly athletic opponents thru his esoteric know-how was as close to actual superpowers the world seemed to get. People LOVE that imagery. That is why the general public was so impressed by slender Royce beating muscular opponents in the early UFC (as oppossed to martial artists being scared crapless by the forced realization of the importance of a ground game) without acknowledging that Royce was a good athlete as well and trained hard to do what he did. People in many TMA WANT to believe that myth of esoteric technique overcoming the mundane physicality, as it lets them BS themselves that they can be dangerous fighters despite their pot bellies and flaccid limbs just because they learned the secret katas.
Non-BS martial artists do know that conditioning is the most important technique, and that while drastic differences in skill can overcome some differences in physical power, there are limits at how these differentials can be significant.

[Moenstah]

I think kenjutsu is awesome and I'd love to study it but I'm not going to delude myself into thinking it's martial virtues are going to translate into real world combat effectiveness.

Well, it is still a big oak stick, so it might be replaced by a baseball/cricket bat.

Oh btw, I totally agreed with the rest of your post ;-) just putting in a perspective.

[Raycetpfl]

What's wrong with your eye?

[Omega Supreme]

I've never understood the TMA hatred of 'athletes'. Athletes are good at physical things and fighting is very physical. Being athletic is a good thing.

Tell that to my eye.

[Kovacs]

I've never understood the TMA hatred of 'athletes'. Athletes are good at physical things and fighting is very physical. Being athletic is a good thing.

[BKR]

I think in the case of weapons arts, it's the common way.

One would think, but, those shower moments can be enlightening.

[Mon Mon]

I find training in Brazilian Jujitsu helps my other martial arts my coach today was talking about pressure testing i know in the gym i work on BJJ my partner is trying to choke me out but will not kill me it is helping me be calm and develop that warriors mindset and keep fighting and it helps me face my own Weakness deciding to do BJJ is turning out to be one of the best decisions i have ever made.

[NeilG]

I have not stated that military---civilian----sports is the only path, it's one possible path, but I do think it's well demonstrated to have happened.

I think in the case of weapons arts, it's the common way.

[DCS]

you know, I had a showerthought about this

There isn't really a legit case to be made that arts START combative and "devolve" into sports.

What about Modern Pentathlon or Parkour?

[Holy Moment]

I haven't had time to get to a real computer recently, so my comment is a little late. The contempt is not confined to, and didn't start with, sport fighting. The same blather about unskilled brutes absorbing and dishing out punishment via crude, animalistic movements being susceptible to the subtle and nuanced techniques of a TMA has been applied to criminal attackers and brawlers for, well, I don't know, but at least decades. That position is just as untenable as the sport/TMA claim. I think we can figure out how a real world conflict between a flappy limbed, unconditioned artist trained in cooperative, no-contact drills and point matches would tend to fare against a battle hardened brawler that learned to fight by fighting everybody that looked at him crooked for the last ten or twenty years.

https://books.google.com/books?id=YN...20belt&f=false

[BKR]

you know, I had a showerthought about this

There isn't really a legit case to be made that arts START combative and "devolve" into sports.

In reality, every society since ever has had fighting/wrestling sports AND armies. So the fact is, there's always been "lifers" who have been doing the shit a long time showing the 20 year olds "just enough"

And there has probably also been a seperate, but demographically overlapping, culture of physical demonstrations of strength and fitness, of which wrestling at the very least would have almost always been a touchstone.

So the idea that military arts "become" sport or civilian arts as they "trickle down" is probably false, save as branding/cachet.

I have not stated that military---civilian----sports is the only path, it's one possible path, but I do think it's well demonstrated to have happened.

[JohnnyCache]

you know, I had a showerthought about this

There isn't really a legit case to be made that arts START combative and "devolve" into sports.

In reality, every society since ever has had fighting/wrestling sports AND armies. So the fact is, there's always been "lifers" who have been doing the shit a long time showing the 20 year olds "just enough"

And there has probably also been a seperate, but demographically overlapping, culture of physical demonstrations of strength and fitness, of which wrestling at the very least would have almost always been a touchstone.

So the idea that military arts "become" sport or civilian arts as they "trickle down" is probably false, save as branding/cachet.

[BKR]

I find your analogy too whiggish for my taste.

BTW, you may find this paper interesting:
Displaying authority: guns, political legitimacy, and martial pageantry in Tokugawa Japan, 1600-1868.

I don't tend to the polished, eloquent analysis for which you are so well known.

Being a trained and having worked as a professional geologist, I may tend towards uniformitarian habits of thought.

Thanks for the reference, I'll check it out.