Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Boston Bullies: Your Mission, Should You Choose to Accept It

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #31
    Originally posted by goodlun View Post
    Well how about if we say a Blue Belt Taps out a Black Belt under competitive conditions or something to indicate that it was an actual match that both where trying their best.
    Yes, the first time I beat a black belt in judo I was a white belt with about a year in Judo. IN fact, I beat him twice, by ippon once and then wazari, in the same tournament, in a round robin set-up. Then I lost a bunch of matches at later tournaments, before I was promoted, to other black and brown belts.

    You think that was a very good black belt ? No instant promotion for me, it took another 6 months.

    I think other circumstances come into play than just rank.

    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by 3moose1 View Post
      Yeah, that's what I meant.

      Like, I've tossed my 4th degree blackbelt judo instructor...in randori...after I went in for a throw and he countered and he walked me through how to execute it...and he wasn't resisting.

      I've tapped my BJJ instructors under similar conditions. Obviously those don't count.

      If a black belt and a blue belt are rolling with any sense of aliveness, and the blue taps the black, he deserves to get his purple belt.


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      I like how you make statements that makes sense, then follow up with a non-sequitur.

      Comment


        #33
        I had a 150 lb blue belt who had won a few tournaments that thought he was giving me real trouble when rolling (6'4 190, brown belt). He asked how long it would take me to catch him if I tried to tap him out fast. I told him under 30 seconds. He scoffed and then I tapped him in 20 some seconds.
        Now I tell this silly story because sometimes people know so little they don't know what they don't know. How can you tell how hard the higher belt is going ? It's a very hard thing to quantify. That bluE belt was shocked. The gym is a funny thing.
        However if a blue belt is catching higher belts on the regular and doing it with finesse. It's time to think about promotion imho.

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by Raycetpfl View Post
          I had a 150 lb blue belt who had won a few tournaments that thought he was giving me real trouble when rolling (6'4 190, brown belt). He asked how long it would take me to catch him if I tried to tap him out fast. I told him under 30 seconds. He scoffed and then I tapped him in 20 some seconds.
          Now I tell this silly story because sometimes people know so little they don't know what they don't know. How can you tell how hard the higher belt is going ? It's a very hard thing to quantify. That bluE belt was shocked. The gym is a funny thing.
          However if a blue belt is catching higher belts on the regular and doing it with finesse. It's time to think about promotion imho.
          There you go, someone who has experience at evaluating people for rank promotion. Or at least common sense, anyway.

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by BKR View Post
            Yes, the first time I beat a black belt in judo I was a white belt with about a year in Judo. IN fact, I beat him twice, by ippon once and then wazari, in the same tournament, in a round robin set-up. Then I lost a bunch of matches at later tournaments, before I was promoted, to other black and brown belts.

            You think that was a very good black belt ? No instant promotion for me, it took another 6 months.

            I think other circumstances come into play than just rank.
            Would it have been an issue if you got promoted to Yellow belt for your victories over the black belt?
            If your beating a BJJ black belt in completion you are most likely displaying skills far above that of a blue belt.
            I am not saying their can't be circumstances where this should could happen but they are going to be towards the extreme.

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by goodlun View Post
              Would it have been an issue if you got promoted to Yellow belt for your victories over the black belt?
              Really depends on the club and the time period. When I was first learning in the 70s, absolutely that happened. I saw a guy get a promotion to green (sankyu in the Canadian system) for throwing his instructor in randori. That style of promotion was called batsugan. These days, it doesn't happen much if at all, and batsugan usually refers to the "beat the lineup" style gradings they have in the UK and other places.

              In Canada now you mostly have to go by the numbers. There are blue and brown belt teenagers that could stomp on any number of adult black belts in competition but the test requirements are usually separate. However in some clubs the requirements might not necessarily be that formal for the kyu grades, at least judging by some of the horrible kata we see shown in shodan gradings. Once you get to apply for shodan though the national federation gets involved and you have to acquire points and do the formal exam.

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by goodlun View Post
                Would it have been an issue if you got promoted to Yellow belt for your victories over the black belt?
                If your beating a BJJ black belt in completion you are most likely displaying skills far above that of a blue belt.
                I am not saying their can't be circumstances where this should could happen but they are going to be towards the extreme.
                No such thing as yellow belt back then for me. My next promotion was to sankyu, which at that time was a brown belt.

                The issue is you have to look at performance over time, not in a single instance. Anybody can get caught. I've been thrown for ippon by a white belt in competition...nearly got double legged by a orange belt who didn't even know how to grip at nationals one year, and I was a sandan then.

                I evaluate people for promotion over time. A one time win over ANY higher rank is good to see, but won't win somebody a promotion right away. It is context dependent. What I'm objecting to is the idea that beating a black belt (or brown, or purple, etc) practically results in promotion to the next higher rank.

                If I have a green belt (which is sankyu in Canada) who goes to competitions, and gets destroyed by other green belts in his age and/or weight class, then he will need to show improvement in that area before he gets promoted to blue green or blue. Well, a LOT of improvement to get promoted to blue (nikyu). He or she doesn't have to beat every green belt, or every blue belt, he/she has to be able to win some and hang with the rest. I can judge from watching as to why something happened. Everybody can have a good day, mediocre day, or bad day (even black belts).

                For example, I have a hyper-athletic, super-motivated, female judoka we are training now. As a yellow belt, she beat a blue belt (which is nikyu, 2nd brown in the old school), who outweighed her by 40 lbs. And I mean by ippon, not minor scores. She had JUST been promoted to yellow belt... so she didn't get an instant promotion to orange belt.

                She went to a summer judo camp in August. The report I got back was that she was killing people up to blue belt, and doing well with brown belts standing, but getting beaten on the ground (due to her lack of experience). Still no promotion, yet. We discussed orange belt, but she needs to work more.

                Maybe that makes my point of view clearer. Context is very important.

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by NeilG View Post
                  Really depends on the club and the time period. When I was first learning in the 70s, absolutely that happened. I saw a guy get a promotion to green (sankyu in the Canadian system) for throwing his instructor in randori. That style of promotion was called batsugan. These days, it doesn't happen much if at all, and batsugan usually refers to the "beat the lineup" style gradings they have in the UK and other places.

                  In Canada now you mostly have to go by the numbers. There are blue and brown belt teenagers that could stomp on any number of adult black belts in competition but the test requirements are usually separate. However in some clubs the requirements might not necessarily be that formal for the kyu grades, at least judging by some of the horrible kata we see shown in shodan gradings. Once you get to apply for shodan though the national federation gets involved and you have to acquire points and do the formal exam.
                  I hear ya on the bad kata for shodan, Neil, seriously, it wasn't only shodan either. Nobody has to be perfect, though.

                  I have kyu grades do kata for promotion, but it's mainly so they are used to doing it as a requirement, when they get to ikkyu then shodan it's not such a big deal.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Hmm, BKR has shown me the error of ways. I appreciate your insight.

                    Also, Canada has such a...unique...grading system. I'm a green belt, and my next promotion will be sankyu (1st Brown)

                    Eventually.




                    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by 3moose1 View Post
                      Hmm, BKR has shown me the error of ways. I appreciate your insight.

                      Also, Canada has such a...unique...grading system. I'm a green belt, and my next promotion will be sankyu (1st Brown)

                      Eventually.




                      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                      If it's in Judo, it depends on USA Judo (California Judo Inc.) in your case, USJA, or USJF as to how the belt colors match up to rank.

                      Canada's system is more in line with Europe as far as that belt color and "verbal" rank (rokyu, gokyu, yonkyu, sankyu, nikyu, ikkyu).

                      Good luck with that, too !

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by BKR View Post
                        If it's in Judo, it depends on USA Judo (California Judo Inc.) in your case, USJA, or USJF as to how the belt colors match up to rank.

                        Canada's system is more in line with Europe as far as that belt color and "verbal" rank (rokyu, gokyu, yonkyu, sankyu, nikyu, ikkyu).

                        Good luck with that, too !
                        Shoot, I've got a hot minute before I get brown belt. Need to get some tournament time as a green belt (and some wins) and break this rust off.


                        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by BKR View Post
                          No such thing as yellow belt back then for me. My next promotion was to sankyu, which at that time was a brown belt.
                          So you where already 6 months away from brown belt, this might be more akin to a purple belt catching a brown belt. Which isn't that big of a deal.

                          Originally posted by BKR View Post
                          The issue is you have to look at performance over time, not in a single instance. Anybody can get caught. I've been thrown for ippon by a white belt in competition...nearly got double legged by a orange belt who didn't even know how to grip at nationals one year, and I was a sandan then.
                          Right and I don't think the argument is that every promotion should be based on one single instance of greatness.
                          However their are feats of greatness that shouldn't be ignored.
                          If you had a what ever the equivalent of a BJJ Blue belt in judo that ippons a national level competitive black belt they are probably due for their next promotion.

                          Originally posted by BKR View Post
                          I evaluate people for promotion over time. A one time win over ANY higher rank is good to see, but won't win somebody a promotion right away. It is context dependent. What I'm objecting to is the idea that beating a black belt (or brown, or purple, etc) practically results in promotion to the next higher rank.
                          For me its not about someone higher its the specific gap between a Blue Belt and a Black Belt in BJJ.
                          I don't know what the equivalent gap is in Judo.
                          What ever rank in Judo is the rank where you have conceptual knowledge of all the throws down and can hit them on an untrained opponent vs a Mastery a mastery of the system.
                          I will say it I don't think a Black Belt in Judo == to a Black Belt in BJJ.
                          I think the Average BJJ Black belt has a much deeper understanding of BJJ than the Average Judo black belt has an understanding of Judo.



                          Originally posted by BKR View Post
                          For example, I have a hyper-athletic, super-motivated, female judoka we are training now. As a yellow belt, she beat a blue belt (which is nikyu, 2nd brown in the old school), who outweighed her by 40 lbs. And I mean by ippon, not minor scores. She had JUST been promoted to yellow belt... so she didn't get an instant promotion to orange belt.
                          This still isn't even in the same ball park of what we are talking about.
                          A BJJ Black Belt is still a long way off of blue.
                          It might only be 3 belts but their are a lot of stripes in between.

                          Originally posted by BKR View Post
                          Context is very important.
                          Yes context is important but your missing the BJJ context.
                          One of things here I think is very different between the two arts is, I think it is honestly easier in Judo to have "an off day"
                          Their are significantly more ways to win a Judo match, making it easier to get caught off guard or to if you will even get lucky.
                          Their are more ways to instantaneously win between getting a good throw, pinning or submission.
                          As well as their are more ways to go wrong with more ways to get penalties.
                          What I am saying its much harder for a BJJ blue belt has to either actually submit a BJJ Black Belt or out grapple him significantly enough to be a head in points.
                          Neither of these things really happen out in the wild.
                          Of course we don't ever really see blue belts competing with black belts in BJJ either.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Most of you young people need to shut the hell up and train. Don't worry about your damn BJJ rank. You're there to learn, not parade the color of the strip of cloth tied to your waist around the mat. You should be less concerned about your belt color and more concerned about learning.

                            I have been training BJJ for 15 years. I'm still a brown belt. There are a number of black belts in this town that I can submit on a regular basis. You know what? I don't care.

                            I got all hung up about rank when I was a purple belt for five years and all my peers got promoted to brown and then black. Here I was, still a purple. Then one day I realized that all that worrying about rank was stopping me from enjoying my training. I stopped worrying and resumed having a good time learning my art. I have no idea when I'll get a black belt. I might never get one, but that's ok. What matters is continuing the learning process.

                            Also, this is not a MABS type of thread so I'm moving it to YMAS.
                            Shut the hell up and train.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by BKR View Post
                              I evaluate people for promotion over time. A one time win over ANY higher rank is good to see, but won't win somebody a promotion right away. It is context dependent. What I'm objecting to is the idea that beating a black belt (or brown, or purple, etc) practically results in promotion to the next higher rank.
                              In our club, we ignore the competition requirements for kyu, as it is a recreational club.

                              Kata are required by Judo Canada guidelines starting from orange (yonkyu), competition points at yellow for adults and orange for kids. You have to demonstrate waza and kata at the appropriate level for the rank and age.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Originally posted by goodlun View Post
                                So you where already 6 months away from brown belt, this might be more akin to a purple belt catching a brown belt. Which isn't that big of a deal.
                                No, I was an indefinite time away from brown belt, as I had won 1 match (that I recall) in the entire previous year. I somehow threw a brown belt for ippon in the second tournament I competed in, then lost all my other matches (as a white belt). Nobody had any idea how I would do in the tournament in which I beat the same black belt twice plus a few other colored belts.

                                And I beat the shit out of that black belt, I didn't just catch him. We later trained together (he was only 16 years old?, and became friends. After he got some decent training he got to be pretty damned good.


                                Originally posted by goodlun View Post
                                Right and I don't think the argument is that every promotion should be based on one single instance of greatness.
                                However their are feats of greatness that shouldn't be ignored.
                                If you had a what ever the equivalent of a BJJ Blue belt in judo that ippons a national level competitive black belt they are probably due for their next promotion.
                                I never stated that an "act of greatness" should be ignored, so we agree.

                                As for the second statement, it all depends. It would certainly be noteworthy, and worth promotion points. If he went on to lose the rest of his matches badly...


                                Originally posted by goodlun View Post
                                For me its not about someone higher its the specific gap between a Blue Belt and a Black Belt in BJJ.
                                I don't know what the equivalent gap is in Judo.
                                What ever rank in Judo is the rank where you have conceptual knowledge of all the throws down and can hit them on an untrained opponent vs a Mastery a mastery of the system.
                                I will say it I don't think a Black Belt in Judo == to a Black Belt in BJJ.
                                I think the Average BJJ Black belt has a much deeper understanding of BJJ than the Average Judo black belt has an understanding of Judo.
                                I think we can agree that beating a higher ranked opponent, especially much higher ranked, in a tournament match is a noteworthy accomplishment, and deserves to be counted towards consideration towards promotion, how much depending on the context and circumstances.

                                My issue was primarily with the statement made by 3Moose1. He wrote that he gets it now, although he seems to think now all he has to do is beat some brown belts to get his brown belts in a Judo shiai.

                                Originally posted by goodlun View Post
                                This still isn't even in the same ball park of what we are talking about.
                                A BJJ Black Belt is still a long way off of blue.

                                I'm speaking in terms of a general process when I gave the somewhat analogous yellow belt anecdote. You realize that I'm a sandan in Judo, and that if I went out and competed in say, a competitive U21 or even u18 division in Canada in my weigh class I'd get beat by teenage blue, brown, and black belts ? Even if I could get into competitive physical condition for a guy my age ?

                                I guess all those 17 year old blue belts in Judo who train 5 days a week should be black belts. Fuck, let's just give them black belts or their next promotion because they can beat NeilG or I...

                                And yes, that's hyperbole...


                                Yes context is important but your missing the BJJ context.
                                One of things here I think is very different between the two arts is, I think it is honestly easier in Judo to have "an off day"
                                Their are significantly more ways to win a Judo match, making it easier to get caught off guard or to if you will even get lucky.
                                Their are more ways to instantaneously win between getting a good throw, pinning or submission.
                                As well as their are more ways to go wrong with more ways to get penalties.
                                What I am saying its much harder for a BJJ blue belt has to either actually submit a BJJ Black Belt or out grapple him significantly enough to be a head in points.
                                Neither of these things really happen out in the wild.
                                Of course we don't ever really see blue belts competing with black belts in BJJ either.
                                Right, I get that. I've grappled (and observed grappling) with enough decent BJJ guys from white to black belts to understand that gap, and the difference in rules and scoring.

                                I would not expect any decent bjj black belt who was not bedridden to at the least fend off a real (not sandbagging) blue belt.

                                But that doesn't really matter. The context is that of the individual in question's position in spectrum of belt rank, and the context of the victory being postulated. Consistency is important as well. Rank standards are minimum standards (in Judo at least).

                                Typically, nowadays, colored belts except for brown won't be competing with black belts in Judo either. When I started, there was no such thing as a "mens' novice divisions". As a white belt in my first or second tournament (that was 1981 so forgive my fogginess), my first match was with a national level sandan (3rd degree black belt). He choked my totally out.

                                Even the anecdote of me beating the same black belt twice was in a collegiate context, all adults, and a mix of white through black belts in rough weight divisions. I remember one other black belt, who I was beating until I got pinned at the end of the match. I was throwing him around like rag doll, and he wasn't happy about it either...

                                Anyway, context is king, and the overall development of the individual in question.

                                Comment

                                Collapse

                                Edit this module to specify a template to display.

                                Working...
                                X