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    "new" judo throws

    adcc facebook page shared this video earlier:
    https://www.facebook.com/rajesh.jaya...son=was_viewed

    i'd like to get the opinions of these throws from the vets. do these look effective or just flashy? are they really new?
    Originally posted by Mr. Machette
    Lift a lot of weights and sexually assault anyone who tries step to you. Flip the script. Watch that fight turn to flight when you go for penetration.
    Originally posted by Raycetpfl
    Just for future reference dude..... when you are doing it right you don't soil your under-roos when you nail chicks.

    #2
    Most judo throws have a certain "flash" to them especially during a demo..it's poetry in motion. That doesn't mean they're as cute or smooth when someone isn't playing good uke.

    However you cut it these are 100% compliant demos, which by design are going to always seem amazing.

    But they're also dead.

    I agree with this comment:

    There are no new moves in Judo. They have all been done before but over time they are forgotten until an old Sensei says who did it the last time. The moves are just mixes or slight changes on the core throws of Judo. They do look fun but if they don't work in competition or reality then they are just that fun.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 6/17/2015 2:08pm, .

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      #3
      The only throw I hadn't seen before was the Tornado throw.

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        #4
        Nothing genuinely new here, most are just modern competition variations.

        The two with the ridiculous names of Macho Tai Otoshi and Tornado are definitely not new.

        The Macho Tai Otoshi is just a Tai Otoshi with the arm round the back and a bit of an initial stab. The Tornado is just a mawarikomi entry to an Ashi Guruma, you can see it done in some ancient sepia footage about 30 seconds in.

        sigpic

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          #5
          Originally posted by judoka_uk View Post
          Nothing genuinely new here, most are just modern competition variations.
          I'm certainly not arguing because I don't know shit about Judo, relatively speaking. But this statement does make me curious. It seems to me (an outsider) that Judo separately identifies all sorts of throws that are basically the same. So why is one variation a variation and another variation is a different throw with its own name. I'm legitimately curious.

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            #6
            Originally posted by itwasntme View Post
            adcc facebook page shared this video earlier:
            https://www.facebook.com/rajesh.jaya...son=was_viewed

            i'd like to get the opinions of these throws from the vets. do these look effective or just flashy? are they really new?
            They are henka (variations) waza of standard judo throws. Some are fairly recent competition variations, others have been around for a while.

            The guy doing them is obviously quite skilled, so nothing against him!

            For example, the Tornado Throw looks like Ashi Guruma, but done with what is called a Mae Mawarikomi entry/tai sabaki (front spinning). That type of entry can be used for most forward Judo throws.

            Here is Mifune using mae mawarikomi to do O Guruma...about 14 seconds in...


            Or, from the Kodokan Judo video series... at 4:10...and 5:33...I may be wrong in that O Guruma appears to be more to the front, Ashi Guruma to the side, but I think you get the idea.


            The Sode Tsurikomi Goshi 1 in the video is a mae mawarikomi entry applied to that throw.

            The "Kashiwazaki" is a variant of Yoko Tomoe Nage attributed to Katsuhiko Kashiwazaki, and is an entry (hairi kata) variation. He called it "Furiko Tomoe Nage", "Furiko" meaning "pendulum".

            Go to about :33 in this video...


            You have to watch what people call Sode Tsurikomi Goshi. For example, the 2 and 3 examples in the video are IMO variations of Seoi Nage (2) and Seoi Otoshi (3). If you watch carefully you can see how uke is loaded on tori upper back. In a true koshi (hip) technique, uke is loaded on the hip/lower back of tori. They do grade into each other, something that starts as a hip throw can end up as a "back carry" (seoi) throw.

            In another thread, "butt bump" was used...you can use a butt (hip) bump to help with breaking uke posture, then load uke on your upper back to throw.

            In Judo at least, the final principle used to do the kake (throw) is the one that is used to name the throw, more or less.

            A more modern approach to get at the underlying principles, or the "how" of the throws would call some of those in the video "innovative techniques".

            So, no, not really new, some are flashy but all have been used in highest level of judo competition successfully by different judoka.
            Falling for Judo since 1980

            "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

            "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

            "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

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              #7
              Originally posted by judoka_uk View Post
              Nothing genuinely new here, most are just modern competition variations.

              The two with the ridiculous names of Macho Tai Otoshi and Tornado are definitely not new.

              The Macho Tai Otoshi is just a Tai Otoshi with the arm round the back and a bit of an initial stab. The Tornado is just a mawarikomi entry to an Ashi Guruma, you can see it done in some ancient sepia footage about 30 seconds in.

              I guess I should just delete my post, LOL. At least we are backing each other up...
              Falling for Judo since 1980

              "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

              "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

              "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Devil View Post
                I'm certainly not arguing because I don't know shit about Judo, relatively speaking. But this statement does make me curious. It seems to me (an outsider) that Judo separately identifies all sorts of throws that are basically the same. So why is one variation a variation and another variation is a different throw with its own name. I'm legitimately curious.
                Kodokan Judo doesn't do that. People who do Kodokan Judo make names for variations. Some throws look a lot alike, but use a different principle.

                This isn't a perfect "rule" obviously. And in fact, an Italian kineseologist has come up with a different way to "classify" judo throwing techniques based on "real" physics rather than Kodokan's hand/foot/sutemi/hip paradigm.

                Google "Biomechanical Classification of Judo Throwing Techniques (Nage Waza)" and see just how correct your observation is...

                Basically, you have Force Couple Techniques, and Lever Techniques, with some sub classification of the Lever techniques depending on placement of the fulcrum...
                Falling for Judo since 1980

                "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

                "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

                "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by BKR View Post
                  I guess I should just delete my post, LOL. At least we are backing each other up...
                  Two sharp judoka are better than one.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Devil View Post
                    I'm certainly not arguing because I don't know shit about Judo, relatively speaking. But this statement does make me curious. It seems to me (an outsider) that Judo separately identifies all sorts of throws that are basically the same. So why is one variation a variation and another variation is a different throw with its own name. I'm legitimately curious.
                    Judo throw names aren't precise descriptions of specific movements, but rather describe the underlying principles of throwing. This means that quite a wide range of movements can be covered by certain principle(s).

                    It gets pretty complicated when you really dive into it, but that's the basic reason why Judo purists will see lots of superficially different throws and group them all under one 'name' as henka(variation) techniques.

                    Originally posted by BKR View Post
                    I guess I should just delete my post, LOL. At least we are backing each other up...
                    Ha, well you know what they say, fools seldom differ.
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by judoka_uk View Post
                      The two with the ridiculous names of Macho Tai Otoshi and Tornado are definitely not new.
                      agreed with everything you said but i'm pretty sure it's "mach-tai-otoshi" not macho. i think in japanese slang "mach" just means really fast (always just assumed this, could be *way* off base)

                      "mach" is used as a nickname by hyato sakurai

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayato_Sakurai

                      His nickname, "Mach", pronounced ma-ha in Japanese was taken as a tribute to his childhood professional wrestling hero, Higo Shigehisashi better known as Mach Hayato, the first Japanese professional wrestler to completely embrace the Mexican style of Lucha Libre and was also among the group of professional wrestlers who made the transition to shoot wrestling as part of the original UWF movement.
                      "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
                      "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
                      "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
                      "Seriously, who gives a fuck what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I had a feeling these were more variations than new throws. That Tornado throw looked very familiar (not that I have ever personally pulled off anything like it) and that hip throw looked like a minor hip toss (ko goshi??). Thanks for the input fellas!
                        Originally posted by Mr. Machette
                        Lift a lot of weights and sexually assault anyone who tries step to you. Flip the script. Watch that fight turn to flight when you go for penetration.
                        Originally posted by Raycetpfl
                        Just for future reference dude..... when you are doing it right you don't soil your under-roos when you nail chicks.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by W. Rabbit View Post
                          Most judo throws have a certain "flash" to them especially during a demo..it's poetry in motion. That doesn't mean they're as cute or smooth when someone isn't playing good uke.
                          The Kashiwazaki throw, executed in elite competition exactly as demonstrated: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB6uF7gROSs

                          Maybe you need to watch more ippon compilations. For instance, tai otoshi. Most of the time it's ugly as hell in randori and shiai. But...there's also this.

                          A technique being executed with demonstration-level quality in elite competition tells me something about the technique (in addition to the competitor). It doesn't necessarily mean that the technique is worth adding to one's arsenal, but it proves a lot.

                          Originally posted by W. Rabbit View Post
                          However you cut it these are 100% compliant demos, which by design are going to always seem amazing.

                          But they're also dead.
                          Demonstrations are not necessarily supposed to be alive. Aliveness is for skill development during training. Demonstration is for clarity while communicating. The problem with Aikido, for instance, is not dead demonstrations but the lack of alive training.
                          What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by 1point2 View Post
                            The Kashiwazaki throw, executed in elite competition exactly as demonstrated: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB6uF7gROSs

                            Maybe you need to watch more ippon compilations. For instance, tai otoshi. Most of the time it's ugly as hell in randori and shiai. But...there's also this.

                            A technique being executed with demonstration-level quality in elite competition tells me something about the technique (in addition to the competitor). It doesn't necessarily mean that the technique is worth adding to one's arsenal, but it proves a lot.



                            Demonstrations are not necessarily supposed to be alive. Aliveness is for skill development during training. Demonstration is for clarity while communicating. The problem with Aikido, for instance, is not dead demonstrations but the lack of alive training.
                            I agree but, for me, the clip would have had more legitimacy had it included competition footage to show the demonstrated techniques validated in action.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Grey Owl View Post
                              I agree but, for me, the clip would have had more legitimacy had it included competition footage to show the demonstrated techniques validated in action.
                              Watch enough judo shiai video on Youtube and you can get your validation.
                              Falling for Judo since 1980

                              "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

                              "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

                              "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

                              Comment

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