How not to Gong Sau, Rabbit Style. CMA Nutrider Edition.

[W. Rabbit]

Saw some weapon vids posted which I think were intended to make the point that WC is about more than just empty hand. But I don't see any reason their weapons training should be held to a different standard than their empty hand. How does it do sparring? How would it fair against HEMA in sparring, or Dog Brothers/FMA in sparring? Is it realistic? Does it work? Those questions are just as legit as asking how (empty hand) WC does in MMA or kickboxing.

They are legit questions, but I don't think we need to validate the 4,000+ year history of Chinese weaponry and the millions that have died under them. The Chinese were masterful innovators not just in iron, bronze, and steel weapon making but technique.

Don't use wushu as your metric. I think the whole "flowery" sport of that has really skewed perspectives on Chinese weapons. Chinese knife and saber fighting are as efficient and deadly as anything in FMA or HEMA, and staff techniques are legendary worldwide, in fact opinions on them from renowned military leaders (with impressive battle histories) are recorded. I won't even get into the halberds, spears, whips...we could go down a list of 100 weapons and not be close to done. I'd love to see a Dog Brothers stick fighter get within 5 feet of someone with a steel chain whip....not happening.

HEMA and Dog Brothers and FMA are fine and good and alive but clearly the focus is on a short list of (relatively SAFE) weapons. I doubt someone trained correctly in Chinese weapons would have a hard time against any of those. But by trained I mean all the necessary elements, form, drilling, live practice. NO dancing or wavy wushu steel etc. You need weapons with the right weight, balance, training with aliveness timing and some sort of realistic pace.

Empty hand, there are Wing Chun guys cropping up all over MMA now, it's only taken 30 years for somebody to not only train Chun, but train FOR the ruleset while doing so. It's hard to say these guys doing well in competition are doing Chun "wrong" etc. If anything seeing is believing, and it's the verbal "pure Chun" crowd that needs to be told to shut the fuck up or get on the lei tai, ring etc.

Sean Obasi is a great case study. Went into MMA a Chunner crying about being a "Wing Chun" man. Stuck with it, took licks, learned his opponents and I just posted a great video of him. So, somebody who was a Wing Chun joke a few years back is now able to roll with any MMA guy.

AND the MMA guys are the one's saying "This is the real Chun right here". Obasi is silent. Note though he doesn't "Trumpet" the Chun like before. Now, he MO GONG KAU, he GONG SAU. It's how it ought to be, and I hope the online Chunnuts are paying attention, because if Wing Chun is to survive the next century they need people like Obasi, or they're already done and just don't know it.

Hey maybe we'll all get lucky and Obasi will show up to the DB gathering with double knives, screaming "I'M WING CHUN KILLER BABY WHO WANTS TO BATTLE!!!"

IT could happen..

[JudOWNED]

Hey maybe we'll all get lucky and Obasi will show up to the DB gathering with double knives, screaming "I'M WING CHUN KILLER BABY WHO WANTS TO BATTLE!!!"

IT could happen..

Haha. That actually reminds me that John Clements the founder of The ARMA made his claim to fame by entering a Kung Fu Tournament that had a weapons division. He ended up winning, of course. But when he signed up and they asked for his "style" he said Elizabethan! lulz

[BackFistMonkey]

They are legit questions, but I don't think we need to validate the 4,000+ year history of Chinese weaponry and the millions that have died under them. The Chinese were masterful innovators not just in iron, bronze, and steel weapon making but technique.

... uh ... yeah ... we do actually. There are plenty of bullshit histories and techniques in the CMA weapons world, I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.

They are legit questions, but I don't think we need to validate the 4,000+ year history of Chinese weaponry and the millions that have died under them.

yep ... I did indeed read that right. You have lost your fucking mind.

[W. Rabbit]

Haha. That actually reminds me that John Clements the founder of The ARMA made his claim to fame by entering a Kung Fu Tournament that had a weapons division. He ended up winning, of course. But when he signed up and they asked for his "style" he said Elizabethan! lulz

I fully support this sort of thing, if for no other reason to pressure the idiots who think choreographed displays of fake weaponry are the best way to preserve the legacy.

I think the HEMA/DB/FMA crowd do a better job of keeping things real, but that doesn't mean the whole CMA crowd doesn't. I know I personally practiced my saber fencing a hell of a lot more than I practice the Single Moon Flowing Knife form...and it's a really short form compared to the empty handed Southern forms. There are barely a couple dozen technique to learn most of them involved standard parry, riposte, lunge, etc.

Just like with empty handed, there are only so many ways to defend and attack with what's in your hands. But having watched both Southern wushu formats of my weapons, as well as the non-wushu stuff, it's like night and day comparing the two.

I think more are drawn to the former for the same reason they were drawn to the "non-alive" Chun training that was popular for so many decades....nobody REALLY want to ever get dirty with Wing Chun. They just want to look good, swing flashy steel, or do slow movements of the Siu Nim Tao. From my POV this is the most superficial thing about kung fu, the people who want to learn it so others will watch them in awe.

Trouble is, people like you and me aren't awed by that crap. We are awed when we see actual skill on display against another, because it stands out significantly against the fluffy, dancy performance type crap peddled as MA.

[JudOWNED]

... uh ... yeah ... we do actually. There are plenty of bullshit histories and techniques in the CMA weapons world, I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.
.

But the Flying Guillotine is real, though, right? RIGHT???

[W. Rabbit]

... uh ... yeah ... we do actually. There are plenty of bullshit histories and techniques in the CMA weapons world, I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.

Not really, unless you're playing advocate and going down that dead horse of "the Chinese don't know their weapons"? Funny how HEMA, FMA, and DB weapon "play" always gets a pass, but not CMA, because the FMA/HEMA/DB guys say otherwise?

I've seen all I have to from that crowd, some obviously know a thing or two but most would not have a clue about weapon fighting for real.

Talk about Koolaid drinkers trying to rewrite history with an anti-Chinese slant. You guys are silly, and make me laugh if it weren't for the fact some people truly believe playing with sticks and helmets is anything close to live saber or staff combat.

So go ahead and name the made up weapon histories or bullshit weapon technique (that aren't just modern wushu).

Also, so what makes you think there is no bullshit in any of those other arts you seem to be nutriding?

Is all of FMA realistic? I'd say no.

Is Dog Brothers the pinnacle of alive weapon arts? Nope.

HEMA? Are you kidding me it's one step beyond LARPING in some cases.

[Permalost]

Is all of FMA realistic? I'd say no.

Is Dog Brothers the pinnacle of alive weapon arts? Nope.

HEMA? Are you kidding me it's one step beyond LARPING in some cases.

The vast majority of CMA weapon work out there is fanciful forms done in unnecessarily low stances and unnecessarily overexaggerated attacks. Not so for FMA or HEMA. The likelihood of finding fencing masks and other weapon sparring gear is pretty high for an FMA group. Not so for CMA. Those that practice that way in CMA are outliers, not the norm.

If Dog Bros isn't the pinnacle of alive weapon arts, what is?

[Guird]

Not really, unless you're playing advocate and going down that dead horse of "the Chinese don't know their weapons"? Funny how HEMA, FMA, and DB weapon "play" always gets a pass, but not CMA, because the FMA/HEMA/DB guys say otherwise?

I've seen all I have to from that crowd, some obviously know a thing or two but most would not have a clue about weapon fighting for real.

Talk about Koolaid drinkers trying to rewrite history with an anti-Chinese slant. You guys are silly, and make me laugh if it weren't for the fact some people truly believe playing with sticks and helmets is anything close to live saber or staff combat.

So go ahead and name the made up weapon histories or bullshit weapon technique (that aren't just modern wushu).

Also, so what makes you think there is no bullshit in any of those other arts you seem to be nutriding?

Is all of FMA realistic? I'd say no.

Is Dog Brothers the pinnacle of alive weapon arts? Nope.

HEMA? Are you kidding me it's one step beyond LARPING in some cases.

This all sounds awfully familiar. Take out the weapons and you're arguing that combat sports aren't real fighting because you can't rip each other's throats out.

Obviously HEMA, dog bros gatherings etc. aren't a perfect, or even particularly good simulation of life or death combat with bladed weapons, but since when is forms practice a better simulation?

[BackFistMonkey]

Not really, unless you're playing advocate and going down that dead horse of "the Chinese don't know their weapons"? Funny how HEMA, FMA, and DB weapon "play" always gets a pass, but not CMA, because the FMA/HEMA/DB guys say otherwise?

I've seen all I have to from that crowd, some obviously know a thing or two but most would not have a clue about weapon fighting for real.

Talk about Koolaid drinkers trying to rewrite history with an anti-Chinese slant. You guys are silly, and make me laugh if it weren't for the fact some people truly believe playing with sticks and helmets is anything close to live saber or staff combat.

So go ahead and name the made up weapon histories or bullshit weapon technique (that aren't just modern wushu).

Also, so what makes you think there is no bullshit in any of those other arts you seem to be nutriding?

Is all of FMA realistic? I'd say no.

Is Dog Brothers the pinnacle of alive weapon arts? Nope.

HEMA? Are you kidding me it's one step beyond LARPING in some cases.

Still waiting to see full contact sparring with CMA weapons. The reason I "nuthug" is because they have proven their training methods bring results. You said you want CMA to have a free pass and not be questioned about it's weapon history or legitimacy of weapons and training methods. That is retarded. No style or lineage gets a pass.

Some styles and teaching methods have already cut the mustard, thus they get respect. When they start fucking off they lose respect.

[W. Rabbit]

But the Flying Guillotine is real, though, right? RIGHT???

We already know they were real.

You can even raise arguments about effectiveness, and point to Mythbusters fabrications on how effectively a modern construct might actually decapitate someone.

But again there is knowing the real history of a weapon, and making assumptions based on pop culture. Did you guys think the ancient weapon known as 血滴子 was a "flying beheader"? If you did you watch too many kung fu movies.

Make sure before you you take into account that 血滴子 were actually poisoned, and never had to actually decapitate anybody. It's basically just a box you drop on someone's head with poisoned edge.

Note: Google Translate tell you "血滴子" means "Flying Guillotine". It doesn't, that name is obviously given to it from non-Chinese sources.

The name of the weapon is "a tiny drop of blood", because as a poisoned weapon of assassination, that's all it needed to draw to kill you.

[W. Rabbit]

If Dog Bros isn't the pinnacle of alive weapon arts, what is?

No way are the DB the "pinnacle" of anything. It's nothing more than a big bunch of like-minded people meeting up.

This is a cliche at this point, sucking their dicks about weapons. I know why you might feel differently, keep in mind to me it advocates cliche behavior.

It's your own golden calf and sorry, when the DB invade a country or kill one person with their weapons let me know, because that's MY golden rule for proving weapons effectiveness.

So, every warring nation on Earth passed that test centuries ago...sorry pointing to a modern CLUB that actually suits up and spars is not going to convince me (and shouldn't convince anyone else) they are a "pinnacle". They're in the right direction...they are not THE direction otherwise it'd be a pretty short journey.

The military, as far as I am concerned, is way ahead of the DB. The DB gatherings are just play and if anything they're just parroting things the military has trained, alive, for a thousand years especially in China. Alive, rugged play but nothing more. Probably a great opportunity, but please, stop putting them on a pedestal. Bladed weapons training is alive and well in almost every Asian military, including the Philippines.

I understand some of you have hardons for things FMA. I don't bow to any sacred cow that way.

Sorry but I think a real weapon encounter between a DB pack and a group of soldiers trained in stick or saber fighting = a lot of dead and injured Dog Brothers.

Sorry I am just not a DB nutrider. It may be a fun and worthwhile place to meet up and train, but a lot of their meetups seem nowadays to be more like Sturgis has become...less about the arts and more about showing up tough and playing aggressive for the cameras.

[W. Rabbit]

This all sounds awfully familiar. Take out the weapons and you're arguing that combat sports aren't real fighting because you can't rip each other's throats out.

Nobody made that straw man.

We're talking about WEAPONS! What the FUCK do you think weapons are for? To bless someone? To gather and smack each other in gear?

Weapons are for bashing skulls open, cutting limbs, heads, bleeding people dry.

If YOU don't take them that seriously (I take my weapons seriously bub), it says a lot about your "training".

Obviously HEMA, dog bros gatherings etc. aren't a perfect, or even particularly good simulation of life or death combat with bladed weapons, but since when is forms practice a better simulation?

Nobody said anything forms practice being a better simulation. I could teach you all the saber techniques used to repel Japan from China in an afternoon.

Since I already know those saber techniques killed Japanese soldiers, I know there is no such thing as a "pinnacle" waiting for me at the Dog Brothers. Just a lot of people who believe that is the best there is. Correction: it's the best they've seen.

[BackFistMonkey]

Since I already know those saber techniques killed Japanese soldiers, I know there is no such thing as a "pinnacle" waiting for me at the Dog Brothers. Just a lot of people who believe that is the best there is. Correction: it's the best they've seen.

OK. Your dry swimming sabre techniques should hold up just find under full contact.

I buy that. Totally.

[W. Rabbit]

Still waiting to see full contact sparring with CMA weapons.

The reason I "nuthug" is because they have proven their training methods bring results. You said you want CMA to have a free pass and not be questioned about it's weapon history or legitimacy of weapons and training methods. That is retarded. No style or lineage gets a pass.

Some styles and teaching methods have already cut the mustard, thus they get respect. When they start fucking off they lose respect.

"Proven training methods bring results", yes. If we just focus on Chinese sabers (one of my two personal favorites), their training was proven effective a long time ago. And, that training survives to the present day because it's hard to refine the techniques, they're swift, efficient, and deadly in the right hands.

Monkey just needs to read up on the Sino-Japanese wars (all of them) to learn about the modern efficacy of Chinese blades, even in the age of firearms.

Many died to bring us glorious tales of saber combat on the front lines, better yet a lot of those tales involve men with swords defeating men with guns. That stands in contrast to any DB gathering, which is more contrived, less alive, far less bloody, and quite frankly, less interesting to be a fly on the wall observing.

You know I agree with you in principle...nobody gets a "free pass", but in this case the legacy of the Chinese weapons we're discussing is written in blood. It's not just the hot air of CMA nutriders (as is the case with "pure" Wing Chun).

[Permalost]

No way are the DB the "pinnacle" of anything. It's nothing more than a big bunch of like-minded people meeting up.

If Dog Bros isn't the pinnacle of alive weapon arts, what is?

It's your own golden calf and sorry, when the DB invade a country or kill one person with their weapons let me know, because that's MY golden rule for proving weapons effectiveness.

So when I advocate a fighting group for fighting I'm nutriding, but when you nutride Hung Ga for every reason under the sun you're not?

We're talking about WEAPONS! What the FUCK do you think weapons are for? To bless someone? To gather and smack each other in gear?

Well, the vast, vast majority of CMA treats weapons like a baton you're supposed to wave around. Not fighting, not even smacking each other in gear, certainly not killing.

Can you pull up some articles of CMA students killing people with CMA weapons?