A WingChun cryfest:MMA hates strikers

[Eudemic]

Are you trying to make the point that because we can't say for certain how most chunners are training these days (or if it is in an effective/alive fashion) due to the signal-to-noise ratio described, we should hesitate to consider it of a similar quality to what it had appeared to be before the rise of video-hosting sites? And then, in nearly the same breath, saying that chunners are actually training hard and that their system is as viable as those it is derived from or related to?

[W. Rabbit]

Are you trying to make the point that because we can't say for certain how most chunners are training these days (or if it is in an effective/alive fashion) due to the signal-to-noise ratio described, we should hesitate to consider it of a similar quality to what it had appeared to be before the rise of video-hosting sites? And then, in nearly the same breath, saying that chunners are actually training hard and that their system is as viable as those it is derived from or related to?

I don't think Wing Chun as typically taught is viable or particularly good for training in the way it's sold to people. But I also think it's all in the packaging it's "stuck" in. From the 20,000 ft level, Wing Chun as a whole is like a kind of boxing specialization (with less emphasis on kicks and throwing) but you've had what...50+ years of people claiming it's the "perfect" style and all that bullshit. It's supposed to do everything, but anybody with a clue knows otherwise. Yet video after video of "how Wing chun defeats X".

What it truly needs (or really people studying it need) is hubris. The Catch-22 is you won't find humble people making online Chun videos...noooo they will claim all that humility bullshit while lecturing you on "science" or "How Chun deals with a boxer", or my favorite, "JOE ROGAN IS WRONG HERE'S WHY". Is it too much to ask the "here's why", be a person who trains Chun at least part-time, AND also steps on a platform or in a cage? Please god....for Christmas maybe? They don't have to be GREAT, they just have to not get their ass kicked in the first 20 seconds.

I do think that people who understand aliveness per se, can easily extend Wing Chun into that realm, or just about anything else. Who was it...Anderson Silva who watched Onk Bak and started throwing "Muay Boran elbows" or whatever, having never even trained Muay Boran (few have nowadays).

So by the same extension if a relatively skilled fighter in anything takes some real Wing Chun lessons who is to say they couldn't make any of it work? In fact, there is video evidence of this now to go along with all the UFC Wing Chun tragicomedies (which is essentially 20 year old data).

Having been effectively armlocked and submitted by tiny people, and having seen some crazy judo throws that appear to violate the laws of physics, my golden rule of MA training is always be prepared to be surprised. To be surprised, cup must empty.

It's not that complicated, nor is a lot of kung fu. Wherever I see people attempting to complicate kung fu, I attack! Sifu taught me that those are almost universally the weakest opponents of all, with the worst and most misguided training. Like me, he felt standards weaken over time.

So, my mission to help keep Chunners and Hung ga students sparring and training alive is sort of how I honor his teaching. He thought most Wing Chun and Hung ga on Youtube was total crap, and never hesitated to tell me it was crap (<3).

[ghost55]

As much as I think the chun is stupid, I've always wanted to learn how to chainpunch, just because it looks cool (even though it's probably useless). I suspect that some of the techniques in the syllabus are useful, they just happen to be very situational. I mean, Anderson Silva apparently does it at least a little bit.

[BackFistMonkey]

As much as I think the chun is stupid, I've always wanted to learn how to chainpunch, just because it looks cool (even though it's probably useless). I suspect that some of the techniques in the syllabus are useful, they just happen to be very situational. I mean, Anderson Silva apparently does it at least a little bit.

Just remember my signature and then think twice on some thoughts you have in life.

[ghost55]

Just remember my signature and then think twice on some thoughts you have in life.

Right. The Chun is for pussies. Never forget.

[W. Rabbit]

As much as I think the chun is stupid, I've always wanted to learn how to chainpunch, just because it looks cool (even though it's probably useless). I suspect that some of the techniques in the syllabus are useful, they just happen to be very situational. I mean, Anderson Silva apparently does it at least a little bit.

I have a love/hate relationship with kung fu, it was grown within me by smarter people than myself, and without them I could easily have gone wayward.

It's a great philosophy, skill from hard work over time. So simple, but a universe of possibility.

Who didn't once pick up a guitar, or try to cook a gourmet meal without starting out with zero skill? It's the same damn process every time, there's no getting around practice.

Where I think Chun suffers more than most is the ratio of people who practice it as a martial art in the real world, against the huge number of folks that essentially LARP it.

Centerline fighters are not that crazy, there are sooo many great boxers that would swarm right in and fuck up their opponents. It's an aggressive form of boxing, giving opportunities to more technically skilled people. Floyd is not the strongest, heaviest, hitter, but his defensive skills are so fucking good he doesn't have to be.

Also, ever noticed how the Philly Roll looks like some "Chinese" San Shou guards? If you've seen Cung Le's book, it's clear as crystal why that is. That type of boxing guard has been in CMA for centuries. So have other guards, like Wood Boxing.

It's crazy to think that maybe once upon a time kung fu was MORE like boxing and wrestling than people think it is today. If that's true (and I believe it is), then Wing Chun was once someone's "Philly Roll" ie their best skill, but then later generations took that and tried to claim it was all there was to know about Chinese boxing.

That, of course, is total bullshit because most of the western boxing punches are in the OTHER styles.

[W. Rabbit]

On a side note and the "vertical fist" seen in Chun.

In CMA this is the "Sun character" fist or "Fire Element" fist because its shape resembles the hanzi, or it has "fire" element characteristics (in Five Element systems, fire represents a rising strike).



But but but...Hung Kuen has this fist also, it's taught essentially as a modified standard punch. One good example of an effective application is a lower body blow (and it's obvious, you would never punch normally into that area even in boxing, you turn your fist).

However you can clearly see in the Chun how some LOCK their fists into the Sun/Fire character position, especially when doing the chain punch bullshit. I've read some forums/threads attempting to "explain" this and the answer is typically the same: "it's the most effective way" "perfect structural alignment" blah blah blah.

Nope, that's counter to common sense. If Hung ga doesn't get that part "wrong", why Chun?

Answer is probably "somebody taught bullshit".

Case in point, here it is taught as "the" "Wing Chun punch". If I trained Wing Chun, I would never ever ever limit my punching this way. Hopefully everyone sees why this picture is stupid, and why always punching this way is a gross abuse of a punching concept that works fine for other styles (yep even good old boxing).



http://www.kungfuonline.com/wingchunpunch.php

[BackFistMonkey]

Right. The Chun is for pussies. Never forget.

No that is not what I said. If you want to get nitty gritty I would say 90% of chunners have a vagina as a spirit animal, but that isn't my point.

I was just pointing out that ideas you have, may not be reflected with reality. It happens to everyone. Over confidence in stupid ideas get you slapped, is my point.

Chain punching people can also get you bitch slapped... or hooked off a step pivot or shovel hooked, or leg kicked ... or swept ... or thrown ... chain punching has it's place in a bar or alley where your target may be shocked by your aggressive and dominant movements because they are not used to such rapid escalation of force by a victim but against someone who trains or is expecting a fight ... your mileage may vary greatly.

[ghost55]

No that is not what I said. If you want to get nitty gritty I would say 90% of chunners have a vagina as a spirit animal, but that isn't my point.

I was just pointing out that ideas you have, may not be reflected with reality. It happens to everyone. Over confidence in stupid ideas get you slapped, is my point.

Chain punching people can also get you bitch slapped... or hooked off a step pivot or shovel hooked, or leg kicked ... or swept ... or thrown ... chain punching has it's place in a bar or alley where your target may be shocked by your aggressive and dominant movements because they are not used to such rapid escalation of force by a victim but against someone who trains or is expecting a fight ... your mileage may vary greatly.

As I said, it looks cool but it's probably useless. The element of chun that I think might have some application is some of the trapping stuff. But as I said, highly situational. Probably so situational that spending the time to learn them is pointless.

[Hadzu]

As much as I think the chun is stupid, I've always wanted to learn how to chainpunch, just because it looks cool (even though it's probably useless). I suspect that some of the techniques in the syllabus are useful, they just happen to be very situational. I mean, Anderson Silva apparently does it at least a little bit.

Silva's involvement with a lot of that stuff has always seemed pretty iffy to me. I mean, there's the whole Seagal conundrum (which, to my understanding, has pretty much been confirmed to have been a running joke at Black House and Seagal didn't actually do shit besides help finance the camp). To parrot what's been said a million times, of course, the dude's Anderson Silva. He could spend a week learning a Japanese tea ceremony and beat 95% of the world up using only those techniques.

[ghost55]

Silva's involvement with a lot of that stuff has always seemed pretty iffy to me. I mean, there's the whole Seagal conundrum (which, to my understanding, has pretty much been confirmed to have been a running joke at Black House and Seagal didn't actually do shit besides help finance the camp). To parrot what's been said a million times, of course, the dude's Anderson Silva. He could spend a week learning a Japanese tea ceremony and beat 95% of the world up using only those techniques.

The other 5% of the world being Nick Diaz and his massive pile-o-weed. I guess we have proof now: weed is the only thing that can defeat teh realz chun.

[BackFistMonkey]

The element of chun that I think might have some application is some of the trapping stuff.

Let me know when you see any TRAPPING in any Combat Sport. Seriously ... I used to have the same line of thought. Till I tried to implement it and of course I didn't want to reinvent the wheel ... I looked and looked for examples of WC Trapping and Interception/Limb Destruction.

Limb Destruction you can find. Irish Bare knuckle boxers smashing fists with the crown of the head ( AKA "pulling an Omega" ), MT and CMA's methods of setting the elbow to spike punches, checking low kicks, low knees ... I could find all kinds of subtle and not so subtle examples of limb destruction or intercepting strikes...

I still have yet to see any WC trapping in a live full contact environment.

[ghost55]

Let me know when you see any TRAPPING in any Combat Sport. Seriously ... I used to have the same line of thought. Till I tried to implement it and of course I didn't want to reinvent the wheel ... I looked and looked for examples of WC Trapping and Interception/Limb Destruction.

Limb Destruction you can find. Irish Bare knuckle boxers smashing fists with the crown of the head ( AKA "pulling an Omega" ), MT and CMA's methods of setting the elbow to spike punches, checking low kicks, low knees ... I could find all kinds of subtle and not so subtle examples of limb destruction or intercepting strikes...

I still have yet to see any WC trapping in a live full contact environment.

You're probably right. Nick Diaz and Lyoto Machida both seem to do something that could be described as "trapping", but it looks nothing like wing chun. I remember being taught this move in MMA class where you pat the jab with your right hand and immediately throw a right straight (which could be arguably considered to be trapping), but I can't find a good video of a technique like that so whatever. At the end of the day, training the chun for anything other than personal amusement is most likely pointless.

[BKR]

You're probably right. Nick Diaz and Lyoto Machida both seem to do something that could be described as "trapping", but it looks nothing like wing chun. I remember being taught this move in MMA class where you pat the jab with your right hand and immediately throw a right straight (which could be arguably considered to be trapping), but I can't find a good video of a technique like that so whatever. At the end of the day, training the chun for anything other than personal amusement is most likely pointless.

Catching a guys hand as he tries to grip you (in Judo) is pretty damned hard. And the other guy has a jacket sleeve to grab. Full speed is really fast, and realistically time to react just isn't there. You can pull your hand out of the way easier, or slap a grip attempt on the collar away (sometimes). But any sort of "trapping" is problematic.

I've done "sticky hands" looking stuff in grip fighting in Judo. In fact, I probably tried it after some discussion on bullshido.net about chi sao or whatever it's called.

That has some application in grappling at least. It's fun to frustrate white belts with it, and little kids. With a skilled adult, not so much.

[ghost55]

Apparently chun training can be useful if you are trying to finish a twister and the other guy is on to you: