A WingChun cryfest:MMA hates strikers

[Eudemic]

There are two kinds of Chunner, the ones fighting in MMA and other open formats now (whether they win or not, they're out there), and the ones that make all these fucking videos.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess these groups are mutually exclusive.

These guys exist because Joe Rogan fractured the Chun, and now these guys have to find the right Shard er video that will heal the Chun and bring peace to their world of Chun.

A lot of other "Chunners" (the quiet ones) are actually training in the pressure cooker. WE only hear about them when they step out into the light, and even then, their own "kin" say "it's not Wing Chun". It's a dog-eat-dog culture, and these videos hurt more than help imo.

There is no crying in kung fu.

I completely agree with what you are saying about WC videos (and the people who tend towards creating them) hurting the culture more than helping, but I am not sure it would be accurate to say that "a lot" of people are training t3h Chun in a combative context relative to the total number of chunners. Admittedly that is an almost baseless assumption on my part, but the art has been tending towards dead training for a very long time and I haven't got much reason to think it has changed recently.

(Edit- My first thought after reading the above was that you might be suggesting that the combative chunners produce a kung fu focused parody of 'The Dark Crystal', featuring Joe Rogan.)

[goodlun]

There are two kinds of Chunner, the ones fighting in MMA and other open formats now (whether they win or not, they're out there), and the ones that make all these fucking videos.

I am going to go out on a limb and say the one group usually ends up abandoning WC for other more proven arts after some time.

[goodlun]

Of course the WC guy does not answer why muay thai works fairly well in the cage (when you add in take down defense) when it faces all the same problems that WC faces.

[ermghoti]

Of course the WC guy does not answer why muay thai works fairly well in the cage (when you add in take down defense) when it faces all the same problems that WC faces.

Well, not all the same problems. MT is not practiced by a bunch of hero-worshipping marshmallows, who think their belief in triangles render them unstoppable, without having to go through the inconvenience of actually developing their skills against an active opponent.

[Southpaw]

Well that clearly explains why no strikers are successful in MMA.


Oh wait....

[Permalost]

The bit about the squishy floor is pretty funny. If a chunner fights a grappler in the ring, I'll bet the chunner ends up being grateful afterwards for the forgiving surface.

[BJMills]

I also like the bitching about the (imaginary) .00002% punching power differential on a soft floor while completely ignoring the 500% power differential between a right cross and a chunner arm punch.

"Yeah yeah I get it, it's the padded floor that makes your punches crap, not the crap punches themselves. It's all so clear now!"

[surferdude]

Or you could suggest there are lots of variations on the combat sport theme. From vale tudo to bare knuckle boxing.

And the chun dose not dominate any of them.

Well stated. I suspect they will just continue to move the goal post though. Ala Foom foom foom! wins on teh streetz.

[ermghoti]

It's a brilliant point, actually. In fact, MMA hates strikers so much, they changed to rules to keep grapplers from dominating.

Wait...

[BKR]

The whole squishy floor thing just shows how inexperienced the ranters are.

They want to get thrown their heads/shoulders/face down or even on their backs on a hard floor ? Besides, those MMA rings don't look like they use soft squishy mats.

Squish floors effect grappler negatively as well. Everybody has to move.

[Southpaw]

Also we should call bullshit on his analysis of 'pounds of force' statistics he is championing comparing a gloved hand to a bare hand.

First of all...all strikers are subject to the same factors with gloves on...Wing Chun punches aren't uniquely affected.

Secondly...using the force of a punch against a soft punching bag, as opposed to say a hard surface that is more applicable to a skull, is bullshit. You can hit a head much harder with a glove on than you can without a glove on due to the damage that a hand will take.

I think a lot of us would agree that MMA would be better, safer and more realistic if there were no gloves. I also think that nobody on this planet would argue that if this were the case, Wing Chun would start being successful in the ring.


Additionally...a great argument can be made that gloves actually favor a striker over a grappler because they can be used against a grappler with regards to defending chokes.

In Marcelo Garcia's single MMA fight back in K1, Garcia was on his opponent's back most of the fight trying to sink in a RNC...but they dude kept grabbing the gloves to prevent it. In what world does Marcelo Garcia NOT finish the RNC????

[Permalost]

I suspect they will just continue to move the goal post though.

Coming soon: physical reality is biased against wing chun, but thats okay because the chun was designed to fight on the mean streets of the Internet.

[W. Rabbit]

I completely agree with what you are saying about WC videos (and the people who tend towards creating them) hurting the culture more than helping, but I am not sure it would be accurate to say that "a lot" of people are training t3h Chun in a combative context relative to the total number of chunners. Admittedly that is an almost baseless assumption on my part, but the art has been tending towards dead training for a very long time and I haven't got much reason to think it has changed recently.

(Edit- My first thought after reading the above was that you might be suggesting that the combative chunners produce a kung fu focused parody of 'The Dark Crystal', featuring Joe Rogan.)

You read correctly. Joe Rogan is the Emperor of the Skeksis who helped shatter the mirror image of Chun into chaos by suggesting there were no competitive worthy fighters willing to say "I do Chun". Nowadays, there are. But unfortunately at the time, Chun was at the top of all the supposedly best kung fu styles (out of dozens or even hundreds).

Chun got wrecked and it's taken TWENTY YEARS from that cataclysmic event, for those MMA Chunners to start peeking out from under the rocks. You mean we have to train against other fighters, live, to have a hope of winning in MMA? Yep.

Do you know why I say "a lot", it's because I personally have yet to run into someone in person who ONLY trains Wing Chun. I probably know a good dozen who have "touched the Chun" on some level, and they're all tough training guys who just like martial arts, never once complain about Chun. Let's call them the "Silent but Serious". They are the most open minded of all Chunners, imho.

I think it's a signal to noise issue, these videos are the Noise and they've drowned out the silent minority (or is it a silent majority) that just train some Chun and incorporate it into their regimen. They don't become the fanboys and so we never see a video of them.

We DO see those "Silent but Serious" guys when they enter MMA for instance and for every ONE of those guys, what happens?

10,000 Video Chunners rush to ride that ONE guy's nuts.

The MMA guys who trains Chun even a little is keeping the Chun alive. I don't know if that will EVER end, as long as people think kung fu is cool it'll be cool to know a little Wing Chun.

If you take that little and make a long whiny video defending Wing Chun, you are not respecting Wing Chun. Obasi. Horgan. Izzo do not respect the legacy of Chun as much as they would have you believe.

I am going to go out on a limb and say the one group usually ends up abandoning WC for other more proven arts after some time.

How is it different for Muay Thai and Savate and Kyokushin and I could go on...all three are next to useless on the ground, but you don't "abandon" them on the ground. You use the right tool for the job, there's nothing wrong with learning multiple tools. For somebody who trains MT+BJJ that something becomes a blending of skill. It stands to reason the same should work for Wing Chun.

There is bobbing and weaving in Wing Chun (from Crane) that you will almost never see in the "bad" Chun videos. Where do you see it? In the MMA videos, and the Chunners go "NOT CHUN". There is a fighting grace there that they don't have and can't understand because of how they are stuck on what Wing Chun is supposed to look like (too many movies). Hung Kuen is no different there is a movie-fied version and then there is the style itself, which is FAR less glamorous.

It helps to picture the kind of masters Wing Chun was associated with as having a striking and evasive grace of the white crane, which is how the art gets its name.

But don't picture Donnie Yen or Bruce Lee or you just walk right into fantasyland.

Picture that poor ass dude with a name nobody gives a shit about, trains honestly in so many things and some Chun and chain punches some guys face off in an octagon, only to have a million online Chunners dismiss him.

That guy is a real disciple of Snake and Crane. Even if he doesn't give a shit about Snake or Crane.

[Eudemic]

You read correctly. Joe Rogan is the Emperor of the Skeksis who helped shatter the mirror image of Chun into chaos by suggesting there were no competitive worthy fighters willing to say "I do Chun". Nowadays, there are. But unfortunately at the time, Chun was at the top of all the supposedly best kung fu styles (out of dozens or even hundreds).

It sounds like it could be a lot of fun.

Do you know why I say "a lot", it's because I personally have yet to run into someone in person who ONLY trains Wing Chun. I probably know a good dozen who have "touched the Chun" on some level, and they're all tough training guys who just like martial arts, never once complain about Chun. Let's call them the "Silent but Serious". They are the most open minded of all Chunners, imho.

I think it's a signal to noise issue, these videos are the Noise and they've drowned out the silent minority (or is it a silent majority) that just train some Chun and incorporate it into their regimen. They don't become the fanboys and so we never see a video of them.

. . . When you say "tough training", does that imply that they are training the chun in an alive manner? And possibly for its benefits as a combative art? Or do you mean that they, being cross-trainers, train their other arts hard but train WC in a more "typical" fashion?

[W. Rabbit]

When you say "tough training", does that imply that they are training the chun in an alive manner? And possibly for its benefits as a combative art? Or do you mean that they, being cross-trainers, train their other arts hard but train WC in a more "typical" fashion?

Both. And why not, there are guys who train their traditional MA in modern competitive setting, and even modern competitive settings where traditional arts are taught. It's not the art that is alive or dead after all, but the training approach, and whether or not you even know how to train it "alive". There are people who will point at dead Wing Chun and say it's alive, and they're the ones who make these goddamn videos.

It's only when you close the box and live in the "Wing Chun World" where suddenly you don't have to worry about boxers or wrestling or jiujitsu. Your Chun doesn't evolve into anything resembling someone who trains "alive" it becomes a caricature of ancient form and theory. In my world this is barely an inch beyond just reading a book.

The form and theory are cool, what sucks is how people abuse it. You can see the same damn thing in the thread on "internal" and tai chi, etc. People "learn" but don't practice, then try to teach others their "secret" what you actually get is their own artificial perspective (which can border or cross right over into pure bullshido).

And sure enough I can spot the hundreds of videos online where people claim to teach Hung Kuen but look book taught, especially when they spar. It's probably the most useful skill I learned.

I'll be as honest as I can, rarely do I see any video on the internet of what I consider "alive" Chun training. But occasionally I do, which suggests to me the noise-to-signal pollution problem. It takes effort and time to find it, and that is the fault of the jackasses who white knight Chun.

For a long time I saw so many of these I too thought "Wow Chun must really suck" but as I looked further I saw "no...it's not the Chun that sucks but the people braying like asses trying to promote it".

It all comes down to style zealotry to me. Style zealotry is how the pure BJJers get their faces flattened, and same way pure Wing Chunners can't take a shoot.