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How to not answer a question aka (I don't care, but I really do.)

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    How to not answer a question aka (I don't care, but I really do.)

    I came back to this forum after a couple years away, and came across this thread. There is plenty of misinformation here.

    First, the particular school mentioned here is excellent. The teacher there lives and breathes martial arts. He is also an excellent instructor fighter and has competed in the past. I don't believe he fights any more, simply because he's no longer at that age where it makes since to step in a ring. That said, feel free to challenge him; you'll get a free lesson. :)

    The school teaches Fa Men Chuan and Luohan Style. Luohan is obviously a northern style, while Fa Men Chuan has more southern elements. The system simply reflects its journey from the north to the south of China. What is being taught in this school is different from what is being taught in the Fa Men Chuan schools outside of the U.S.

    With regards to it being a "true" system, that is simply a matter of opinion. It what is being taught here the same as what is being taught at the Temple in Henan? No. But then again, neither is anything else in the U.S., and large parts of China. If you want "true" Shaolin martial arts in the U.S., go train with Shi Yang Ming.

    The name of the system has changed numerous times over the centuries. Certain names were specifically used to hide its Shaolin origins at times when martial arts were banned in China. I'm sure its not the only system that did this. The system also has a complete lineage.

    There is not much recent fight material out there. I did find one from the Sifu of the head instructor of this school. I can posts links yet, but go to youtube and type in "
    Moises Arocho 1st round KO" He's well known, at least along the east coast, for his fighting abilities. He's knocked many a person out. One of his students was Tommy Bottone.

    #2
    Originally posted by TheWarriorMonk View Post
    I came back to this forum after a couple years away, and came across this thread. There is plenty of misinformation here.
    What is the misinformation, specifically.

    Originally posted by TheWarriorMonk View Post
    The school teaches Fa Men Chuan and Luohan Style. Luohan is obviously a northern style, while Fa Men Chuan has more southern elements.
    What southern elements do you mean, specifically.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by W. Rabbit View Post
      What is the misinformation, specifically.
      It was already discussed in my prior post.

      You'll find that the criticisms of the this school are only from people that simply do not know the instructor, have no experience with him or his school, and are selectively choosing "information" about this school of the Internet. This guy is the real deal. He knows more about Shaolin martial arts than 99% of the other instructors out there. In fact, he knows several Shaolin Monks, either personal friend or has worked with them in the past (by Shaolin Monk I mean those that have trained at Shaolin Temple from child to adult; e.g., Shi Yang Ming). He knows how to teach, is very physically fit, and can fight.

      I'm all about action; not words. You are free to go check out his school for yourself.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by TheWarriorMonk View Post
        It was already discussed in my prior post.
        I asked for specifics, not generalizations that you provided. I also asked specifics about southern CMA content, you ignored that.

        If you give a shit about this school why not try to actually answer questions.

        Originally posted by TheWarriorMonk View Post
        You'll find that the criticisms of the this school are only from people that simply do not know the instructor, have no experience with him or his school, and are selectively choosing "information" about this school of the Internet. This guy is the real deal. He knows more about Shaolin martial arts than 99% of the other instructors out there. In fact, he knows several Shaolin Monks, either personal friend or has worked with them in the past (by Shaolin Monk I mean those that have trained at Shaolin Temple from child to adult; e.g., Shi Yang Ming). He knows how to teach, is very physically fit, and can fight.
        You shouldn't need to know the instructor, go to his school, or avoid the internet when researching his school or his style.

        Also plenty of people can claim to know or have trained with Shi Yang Ming.

        Personal anecdotes about him being "the real deal Shaolin" don't mean much on Bullshido. You are parroting a line heard quite a bit. It doesn't matter if the head instructor is the real deal or not. Nobody questioned his legitimacy.

        We want to know if his school CONSISTENTLY produces good students or not. Given the ratings above, his school would seem to be one of the best fight schools on the East Coast...however I am having a hard time finding evidence of that.

        That said you won't find a more fair assessor of "the real deal Shaolin" than me, but I still question why there is SO much demo video and no video of the actual san da training.

        This is a SCHOOL REVIEW. Not a review of Moises, Tommy, etc. Neither of those people attend this school.

        Originally posted by TheWarriorMonk View Post
        I'm all about action; not words. You are free to go check out his school for yourself.
        I am pretty sure I've watched every video this school has put online.

        We want to see what the san da looks like, so people can decide for themselves.

        The fact that this school was rated a "10" for Aliveness is very suspect, not to mention the rest. "good workout" is not what this website is about.

        I'll grant you Moises and Bottone certainly seem to be good fighters. But neither of them go to or teach at THIS school, right?

        So there we are back to the school in this thread is being labeled "the real deal" and doesn't seem to have produced any kickboxers or kuoshu competitors itself, but it's an "intense workout".

        Right?

        Videos of the schools san da program in full progress would go 1000% past "he's the real deal Shaolin".

        Originally posted by TheWarriorMonk View Post
        That said, feel free to challenge him; you'll get a free lesson. :)
        Almost missed this.

        So, are YOU Gregg Zilb?

        If not, does he know you're issuing challenges on his behalf?
        Last edited by W. Rabbit; 11/24/2014 4:15pm, .

        Comment


          #5
          So, in an attempt to be fair and gauge this school's "toughness" I looked for rank testing videos, an obvious place you'd expect to see san da in a decent school, and found this.

          You won't believe it there's actually some san da in there, including kiddie san da. Adorable. Too bad I someone who's never stepped foot in the place, needed to go looking for it.

          Still, I don't believe the scoring in the original review is accurate.

          "10" Aliveness? No.




          On a side note and the matter of Fa Men Chuan...hate to be a stickler for detail but here's a common problem in "Shaolin"-based CMA schools: peddling falsehood as history.

          This link was like a joyride of falsification for me. Honest truth.

          http://www.tayufamenchuan.com/en/history.html

          This quote appears nowhere in Sun Tzu (prove me wrong?), and almost all of the dates in the "history" are wrong/made up.

          Sun Zi (the oldest book on the art of war known in China) was written. The book refers to able fighters, and says “…to prepare oneself for hand to hand combat, and combat with weapons, to be certain to defend oneself from an attacker, be it man or beast.”.
          Here's another gem. A false quotation wrapped around false false history.

          When the Shaolins would heed the calls of the peasants whose populace was being destroyed, their people robbed and killed, the monks were attacked and allowed themselves to be beaten fulfilling their vows of non-violence. But Bodhidarma advised them to “convert each finger into and arrow, each arm into a sword, and each leg into a garrot”.
          Last edited by W. Rabbit; 11/24/2014 7:01pm, .

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by W. Rabbit View Post
            I asked for specifics, not generalizations that you provided. I also asked specifics about southern CMA content, you ignored that.

            If you give a shit about this school why not try to actually answer questions.
            It's not my school, though I have been there for a couple classes in the past.

            You shouldn't need to know the instructor, go to his school, or avoid the internet when researching his school or his style.

            Also plenty of people can claim to know or have trained with Shi Yang Ming.
            These guys actually met Shi Yang Ming shortly after he came to this country, and he gave seminars at Moises Arocho's school, of which this instructor attended. He's still friend's with him as well as several of his students. In fact, I met one of Shi Yang Ming's senior students at one of this instructor's seminars.

            We want to know if his school CONSISTENTLY produces good students or not. Given the ratings above, his school would seem to be one of the best fight schools on the East Coast...however I am having a hard time finding evidence of that.
            I'm am not familiar with whether they do or don't currently compete. I do know that they did in the past.

            This is a SCHOOL REVIEW. Not a review of Moises, Tommy, etc. Neither of those people attend this school.
            You have never attended this school. Experienced martial artists such as myself have. People can make there opinion based on people that have actually attended the school, or people who sit behind their computers and make opinions about select information on this Internet.

            I am pretty sure I've watched every video this school has put online.
            Then you have seen this instructor in competition, both forms and fighting.

            The fact that this school was rated a "10" for Aliveness is very suspect, not to mention the rest. "good workout" is not what this website is about.
            9 or 10 is about right.

            [quote]I'll grant you Moises and Bottone certainly seem to be good fighters. But neither of them go to or teach at THIS school, right?

            Tommy Bottone does his own things. Moises Arocho does not currently teach, but does stop by this (and other) schools on occasion to see how they are doing. This instructor is one of Moises' senior students, if not the senior student. There are very few students under Moises Arocho that have actually reached the Sifu level, and ever single one is a good instructor and very good fighter.

            So, are YOU Gregg Zilb?
            Nope; definitely not.

            If not, does he know you're issuing challenges on his behalf?
            I'm not offering challenges on his behalf. Go challenge him yourself. You'll learn a lesson; I have. :)

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by W. Rabbit View Post
              On a side note and the matter of Fa Men Chuan
              Does this school put itself forth as a Fa Men Chuan school? If not, what is it's relevance to a review of this school? Personal vendetta maybe?

              Comment


                #8
                OP,

                I have watched a few of the videos from your link. No one in them shows anywhere near a '9' in striking. What's the deal with that?






                Please revise your score.

                TheWarriorMonk:
                It's not my school, though I have been there for a couple classes in the past.
                Then stop talking about it like you know what you're talking about.

                TWM:
                These guys actually met Shi Yang Ming shortly after he came to this country, and he gave seminars at Moises Arocho's school, of which this instructor attended. He's still friend's with him as well as several of his students. In fact, I met one of Shi Yang Ming's senior students at one of this instructor's seminars.
                So what. My first GongFu teacher opened the first official Shaolin school in the UK, with the opening ceremony blessings carried out by the ABBOT of the Shaolin Temple.
                Didn't mean he wasn't full of BS.
                I have met and trained with ShiYanZi widely regarded as the toughest of the SanShou fighters from Shaolin..guess what it doesn't mean shit..hope you see where i'm going with this.


                TheKeyboardMonk:
                I'm all about action; not words.
                LMFAO

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Resonance10 View Post
                  OP,

                  I have watched a few of the videos from your link. No one in them shows anywhere near a '9' in striking. What's the deal with that?
                  They are instructional videos. There are videos out there of the instructor competing, in both forms and fighting, though they aren't linked to the website.

                  Then stop talking about it like you know what you're talking about.
                  In that case, why are you even commenting? At least I know the instructor personally and have done some limited training there, mostly self defense and weapons (though I train at another school due to distance).

                  I know I'm wasting my time here, BTW. This forum is about bashing instructors and schools more than anything else. And it is sad. We all know that many actually deserve it, but when the legitimate ones are also bashed, it calls into question the entire forum. I've seen way to much of a disconnect between what is said here regarding certain instructors and the real world.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by TheWarriorMonk View Post
                    We all know that many actually deserve it, but when the legitimate ones are also bashed, it calls into question the entire forum.
                    Your bias is showing. Waaaaah! We're being mean to your favourite instructor/sports team/political party/TV show!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by TheWarriorMonk View Post
                      They are instructional videos. There are videos out there of the instructor competing, in both forms and fighting, though they aren't linked to the website.



                      In that case, why are you even commenting? At least I know the instructor personally and have done some limited training there, mostly self defense and weapons (though I train at another school due to distance).

                      I know I'm wasting my time here, BTW. This forum is about bashing instructors and schools more than anything else. And it is sad. We all know that many actually deserve it, but when the legitimate ones are also bashed, it calls into question the entire forum. I've seen way to much of a disconnect between what is said here regarding certain instructors and the real world.
                      They are instructional videos and OP gave them 9 for striking instruction..what's your point?

                      You have mentioned misinformation and offered no correction that is relevant. Just saying 'because I have been there a few times' or ' I know the instructor' means nothing. The SCHOOL is what is being reviewed. The instructor may be the toughest guy on the planet, doesn't mean his school is awesome by default. This is why there are criteria provided for giving scores. Hence I question the 9. Based also on what the school itself has put on video as representative.

                      FAQ:
                      Striking Instruction:

                      1-3: No striking.
                      4-5: Striking for punching/kicking only and/or limited purposes (demonstration, highly restrictive sport).
                      6-7: Comprehensive striking (all ranges) or superior single range striking with success in local/regional competition or practical application.
                      8-9: Pressure-tested, full range striking and proven success in limited restriction, top level competitions or high level self defense situations.
                      10: Superior excellence including A-level competitors/instructors
                      The above is why competition results are enquired after.
                      Quit fucking crying.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Chili Pepper View Post
                        Your bias is showing. Waaaaah! We're being mean to your favourite instructor/sports team/political party/TV show!
                        I have no bias. He is simply one of many instructors that I have met over the years that I respect because of his skills, his ethic, and the way he runs his school. I'm also not one to bash instructors based on third-hand information. Others obviously feel differently.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Resonance10 View Post
                          They are instructional videos and OP gave them 9 for striking instruction..what's your point?
                          Do I really need to explain the difference between instructional videos and fighting?

                          You have mentioned misinformation and offered no correction that is relevant. Just saying 'because I have been there a few times' or ' I know the instructor' means nothing. The SCHOOL is what is being reviewed.
                          Opinions based on second or third hand information may trump actual experience in your world, but not mine. If I want to train at a school, I listen to people that have actually attended the school, and then visit it myself.

                          The instructor may be the toughest guy on the planet, doesn't mean his school is awesome by default. This is why there are criteria provided four giving scores. Hence I question the 9. Based also on what the school itself has put on video as representative.
                          Granted, I'm not familiar with all of the ranking criteria that this forum uses. Sifu Moises, this instructor's teacher, I would rank the training he received as a 10 for striking. Those guys trained on concrete floors and beat their fists on concrete walls. Most of the modern training doesn't even come close to that.

                          The striking is also sash appropriate. A lot of the students in those videos are lower ranks. I took one of those combat classes with one of the higher ranks, and we hit hard and were tossing each other around like rag dolls. :)

                          The above is why competition results are enquired after.
                          I find it funny that people bash the school for being "Shaolin," then complain about competition results. True Shaolin schools wouldn't be fighting in competition in the first place.

                          Quit fucking crying.
                          lol...I'm not crying. I not 12 years old anymore. I could care less about criticism, as criticism does not change reality. Why don't you get away from the computer and see for yourself? Or is that too much effort?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by TheWarriorMonk View Post
                            Do I really need to explain the difference between instructional videos and fighting?



                            Opinions based on second or third hand information may trump actual experience in your world, but not mine. If I want to train at a school, I listen to people that have actually attended the school, and then visit it myself.



                            Granted, I'm not familiar with all of the ranking criteria that this forum uses. Sifu Moises, this instructor's teacher, I would rank the training he received as a 10 for striking. Those guys trained on concrete floors and beat their fists on concrete walls. Most of the modern training doesn't even come close to that.

                            The striking is also sash appropriate. A lot of the students in those videos are lower ranks. I took one of those combat classes with one of the higher ranks, and we hit hard and were tossing each other around like rag dolls. :)



                            I find it funny that people bash the school for being "Shaolin," then complain about competition results. True Shaolin schools wouldn't be fighting in competition in the first place.



                            lol...I'm not crying. I not 12 years old anymore. I could care less about criticism, as criticism does not change reality. Why don't you get away from the computer and see for yourself? Or is that too much effort?
                            Alright, I'll chime in just to clear some things up. I've been a mostly-lurker on this forum for a couple of years now (though I've got a few posts here and there).

                            The thing to understand is that *all* ratings on this forum, regardless of style or motivation for training, are weighed against an objective, largely unaltered criteria. That is to say, on Bullshido, a rating of 9 or 10 is only granted through proof of competition. If you (or the original poster) are claiming this to be a rating of 9/10, that is tantamount to saying that this school actively competes in competitions based on whatever you are giving it a rating in. So, a high rating in striking is a direct claim that this school actively competes in striking. If you do not have videos or competitive records of the school engaging in these activities, then, per the original criteria, your rating is inaccurate.

                            TL;DR: If you find striking concrete in order to improve striking an effective and legitimate training method, cool beans, but that doesn't make the rating accurate.

                            Sent from my C5155 using Bullshido - No BS MMA mobile app

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Thank you for a level-headed, professional response. I do not know their current status with regard to competition. They most definitely used to compete and did very, very well. I am aware that they do community based activities (lion dances, shows for various Asian American groups, etc.), but competitions I can't comment on.

                              Comment

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