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    #31
    Originally posted by Hadzu View Post
    Right, but isn't the reason behind those rules, at least mostly (and originally), based on safety?
    Reading this again, I was reminded of something:

    http://www.judo-ch.jp/english/dictio...ou/index.shtml

    Tori (Player executing technique) wraps both legs around Uke (Player receiving opponent's attack) torso, clasps his ankles together, and applies a strong strangling force while grasping both of Uke (Player receiving opponent's attack) sleeves, etc., to control Uke (Player receiving opponent's attack) upper body. Tori (Player executing technique) then squeezes his knees together against Uke (Player receiving opponent's attack) sides.
    The rules of Judo prohibit the following types of strangles: strangling any part of the body (head, torso, etc.) other than the neck, strangling by using the Belt or the hem of the uniform, strangling by pressure from the fist, strangling directly by the fingers, etc.
    This Do-jime (Body scissors) Waza is therefore prohibited because it consists of strangling (scissoring) the opponent's torso with both legs. All Waza which could inflict lethal damage or death, etc., are prohibited.


    I know I'm not a doctor, but I'm also not the Highlander and I somehow have not yet succumbed to the deadliness of the closed guard. Which kind of sets up how I feel about the leg locks...

    Originally posted by NeilG View Post
    Glossed over this point when it was made previously but do people honestly feel modern surgical capability is a justification for risking knee injury?
    This is something I've been wanting to know more about. Unsurprisingly, the people who don't roll with leg locks are quite apprehensive about them, but I learned a basic kneebar with a sambo group for a while; I have a shallow socket in my knee and experienced several partial dislocations in the past, but the kneebar never made me feel unsafe. On the contrary, it was considerably more difficult to execute successlly than an armbar; apparently, it's actually less common for Sambo players to go for leg locks simply because of the difficulty associated with them.

    Maybe the kneebar is the only safe one. Or perhaps the Russians are in fact a race of Highlanders and I was secretly adopted as a cold war experiment. How have you fared?
    Last edited by DARPAChief; 7/17/2014 8:44am, .

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      #32
      I've never tried them. I'm told there's a lot less warning pain than elbow locks. I already don't feel much pain from elbow locks which is a bad thing.

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        #33
        Originally posted by DARPAChief View Post
        I know I'm not a doctor, but I'm also not the Highlander and I somehow have not yet succumbed to the deadliness of the closed guard. Which kind of sets up how I feel about the leg locks...
        Some closed guards are "deadlier" than others. There are people who can lock someone between their legs, and then there are people who can crush someone between their legs, especially if there is a big size difference. Little guy caught in the vice grip closed guard of a big guy with strong legs...the "Nutcracker" guard.

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          #34
          Wasn't there a scene in Goldeneye with that? Russians just have this stuff figured out. Anyway, I can see what you're saying but it's a stretch considering the use of weight classes, how it's usually used, and the permissiveness surrounding other waza, which may result in fatality if abused (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/18/sp...anted=all&_r=0).
          Last edited by DARPAChief; 7/17/2014 9:05am, .

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            #35
            Originally posted by NeilG View Post
            Glossed over this point when it was made previously but do people honestly feel modern surgical capability is a justification for risking knee injury?

            Well, injury is always a risk when training, much as we try to mitigate that risk. I realize that knee injuries can be more severe and permanent than similar joint injuries sustained to the elbow or shoulder, but not, as I understand it, to the extent that many people (who don't actively train leg locks for this very reason) seem to believe.

            I understand, of course, that my opinion is largely worthless, being that I'm a lowly noob with very little real experience in the field. In light of this, I base my opinion on what I've heard people who are much more experienced with leg locks and grappling in general say. I recall Sambosteve being rather unspoken about his belief that the dangers of leg locks are greatly exaggerated in much of the grappling community, and if there's anyone I'd listen to when it comes to leg locks, it's probably him. That said, I'd be interested to hear what other samboists have to say on the subject, though I get the feeling this is a point that's already been argued ad naseum in some other thread.

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              #36
              Originally posted by DARPAChief View Post
              Reading this again, I was reminded of something:

              http://www.judo-ch.jp/english/dictio...ou/index.shtml

              Tori (Player executing technique) wraps both legs around Uke (Player receiving opponent's attack) torso, clasps his ankles together, and applies a strong strangling force while grasping both of Uke (Player receiving opponent's attack) sleeves, etc., to control Uke (Player receiving opponent's attack) upper body. Tori (Player executing technique) then squeezes his knees together against Uke (Player receiving opponent's attack) sides.
              The rules of Judo prohibit the following types of strangles: strangling any part of the body (head, torso, etc.) other than the neck, strangling by using the Belt or the hem of the uniform, strangling by pressure from the fist, strangling directly by the fingers, etc.
              This Do-jime (Body scissors) Waza is therefore prohibited because it consists of strangling (scissoring) the opponent's torso with both legs. All Waza which could inflict lethal damage or death, etc., are prohibited.


              I know I'm not a doctor, but I'm also not the Highlander and I somehow have not yet succumbed to the deadliness of the closed guard. Which kind of sets up how I feel about the leg locks...

              snipp
              Dojime in Judo isn't just closed guard, it is what I think is called "body scissors" in (BJJ/Catch/MMA?). It involves crossing the ankles and straightening the legs around uke torso, or, doing what I think is called a "body triangle".

              I've seen raging debates on the Interwebz over the years over exactly how deadly the above techniques may or may not be, so I'm not getting into their effectiveness here. Personally, I've had what is known in Judo as Dojime applied to me and it hurt like hell. Others have poo-pooed anyone who "taps" to it as a wimp.

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                #37
                Originally posted by DARPAChief View Post
                Wasn't there a scene in Goldeneye with that? Russians just have this stuff figured out. Anyway, I can see what you're saying but it's a stretch considering the use of weight classes, how it's usually used, and the permissiveness surrounding other waza, which may result in fatality if abused (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/18/sp...anted=all&_r=0).
                Uchida’s study, published in 2009, tracked 108 deaths since 1983
                http://www.nydailynews.com/life-styl...icle-1.1309671

                Researchers from the National Center for Catastrophic Sports Injury Research studied 243 football deaths recorded between July 1990 and June 2010.
                Interesting ratios. 108/26 vs 243/20, might suggest American football is 3x more likely to kill you than judo.

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                  #38
                  Originally posted by NeilG View Post
                  I've never tried them. I'm told there's a lot less warning pain than elbow locks. I already don't feel much pain from elbow locks which is a bad thing.
                  I've rolled in BJJ when straight knee and ankle locks were allowed. Not really a big deal, but as judoka you have to learn to pay more attention to controlling your training partner (at least one side of their upper body at all times) and also to your own lower body (knees and ankles).

                  The heel hooks are another thing. I've rolled twice when they were allowed in training, and all I can say is you had better have a skilled and controlled training partner, LOL.

                  I'd not be opposed to straight knee/ankle locks being put back into modern Judo training and competition. I think we'd still see more knee ankle injuries from crappy standing judo.

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                    #39
                    Originally posted by BKR View Post
                    Dojime in Judo isn't just closed guard, it is what I think is called "body scissors" in (BJJ/Catch/MMA?). It involves crossing the ankles and straightening the legs around uke torso, or, doing what I think is called a "body triangle".

                    I've seen raging debates on the Interwebz over the years over exactly how deadly the above techniques may or may not be, so I'm not getting into their effectiveness here. Personally, I've had what is known in Judo as Dojime applied to me and it hurt like hell. Others have poo-pooed anyone who "taps" to it as a wimp.
                    Don't get me started on being a wimp. Guess who tapped to an elbow grinding his tibia not even two years ago? Although I knew it was perfectly harmless and I'd taken his back, the pain left me weeping -but I digress; I'd never even thought to turn someone into human gogurt, but I did reflexively close guard once or twice during Judo and it was all the same to them. Is that a universal or were their dogi lined with tinfoil that day?

                    Originally posted by W. Rabbit View Post
                    http://www.nydailynews.com/life-styl...icle-1.1309671

                    Interesting ratios. 108/26 vs 243/20, might suggest American football is 3x more likely to kill you than judo.
                    The intention wasn't to paint Judo as an epidemic, I just thought there was suitable symmetry between the extremes of dojime/closed guard and how everyday "safe" Judo waza may be abused. I wonder what they could do to those numbers if linebackers started kataguruma-ing one another?

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                      #40
                      Originally posted by DARPAChief View Post
                      Don't get me started on being a wimp. Guess who tapped to an elbow grinding his tibia not even two years ago? Although I knew it was perfectly harmless and I'd taken his back, the pain left me weeping -but I digress; I'd never even thought to turn someone into human gogurt, but I did reflexively close guard once or twice during Judo and it was all the same to them. Is that a universal or were their dogi lined with tinfoil that day?



                      The intention wasn't to paint Judo as an epidemic, I just thought there was suitable symmetry between the extremes of dojime/closed guard and how everyday "safe" Judo waza may be abused. I wonder what they could do to those numbers if linebackers started kataguruma-ing one another?
                      Closed guard is used in Judo for sure, it's the specific technique, as defined in Judo, "Dojime" that is the issue.

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                        #41
                        Originally posted by BKR View Post
                        Closed guard is used in Judo for sure, it's the specific technique, as defined in Judo, "Dojime" that is the issue.
                        BTW, I tell guys who use Dojime on me that if they want to squeeze the shit out of me then I get to use Daki Age, and finish it, not just do the lift.

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                          #42
                          Rules of Randori

                          Not really much advantage from dojime anyway. Under competition rules if you have uke in your closed guard its doubtful he'll make anything happen in time. OTOH If you want to make something happen you'd best try to reverse rather than work from closed guard.

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                            #43
                            Originally posted by NeilG View Post
                            Not really much advantage from dojime anyway. Under competition rules if you have uke in your closed guard its doubtful he'll make anything happen in time. OTOH If you want to make something happen you'd best try to reverse rather than work from closed guard.
                            Quoted for truth...

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