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**reedone816** · 6/05/2014 10:02am,

Hello,
I am a newb here, really interesting for mentioning silat.
May I ask what kind of silat you've been take a nib at?
And if my memory serve me right, there is a silat teacher there in NY that quite good with west java traditional silat joint locks, have several youtube demonstration also.
Just be reserved on his claims though...

send using android app

**Permalost** · 6/05/2014 10:28am,

Originally posted by Nicky Santoro View Post

Hi All,

Been following this forum in order to research different MA disciplines for the past few months. Found it very helpful and decided to join and offer my own experiences to hopefully benefit others.

Goal:

Take from the disciplines listed below to form a self defense system that I find most comfortable and applicable based on my strengths, mental and physical.

Disciplines being studied via purchased DVD sets, books and YouTube tutorials:

Pencak Silat
Kali
Panantukan
JKD (Streetfighting Specifically)
Target Focus Strike Training
Systema
Krav Maga
KFM

Brief History:

I tried gyms and personal trainers and absolutely hated it.

Sorry to break this to you, but training with others is the ONLY way to develop true martial arts skills. You can't do it by books and DVDs alone.

To learn WHY, watch this video carefully:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imjmLWj5WCU

Around here, we advocate arts that train regularly with aliveness (not just practicing pre-set moves against pre-set attacks) because violence is dynamic and changing. Most of the arts you've listed there do not train that way.

Systema, krav, KFM, and TFT are all massively over-hyped in my opinion. I've trained in systema and enjoyed it but they mostly couldn't fight at full speed. I've done a little krav and it wasn't horrible but the training with actual people was key. I've seen the TFT DVDs and they assume that as soon as you lay your hands on someone they'll crumple like paper in a predictable way and that's not true. KFM looks like bastardized panuntukan with street clothes. Its mostly Batman hype and those skills are done better elsewhere.

I've done panuntukan and I'm all for it, but it must be sparred, it must use a partner, and the better the training is, the more it generally resembles training at a regular boxing gym.

Kali: There's good and bad kali but it must be learned and trained in person.

JKD: JKD isn't one style or method so its impossible to say too much.

It hit me one day that I could study the MAs used in the choreography of some of my favorite movies (Bourne Trilogy, Batman Trilogy, The Raid 1 & 2 (absolutely awesome movies) and Jack Reacher, among others) and in practicing the techniques, exercise at the same time.

Before you flame me to death, I know the difference between choreographed fights and street fights.

You say you know the difference, but without a background in real martial arts, your filter is not likely to be very good, especially without sparring partners to hit you when you're doing something wrong.

Also consider that you can't really learn the nuance of technique from a movie, for several reasons:
-they are not teaching the technical details at all
-they do the motions big and dramatic for the big screen.
-you're only able to see one angle
-modern fight scenes (Bourne, etc) use lots of shakey cameras, weird angles and lots of editing

If you really, really insist on learning from videos, learn from instructionals, not Hollywood entertainment. Hollywood will tell you that you can use a crescent kick to knock a pistol out of someone's hand, and that Lucy Liu's acrobatic kicks in high heels can take out 5 muscular goons.

I avoid physical confrontations as a general rule, but wish to be prepared to: at best, neutralize a conflict before it escalates with a demeanor of confidence and competence, and at worst, quickly neutralize the threat with the tactics I am studying to ensure my own safety while incapacitating the attacker/extricating myself from the situation.

How are you going to practice these skills by yourself?

So far I have immersed myself in my studies and worked on developing the techniques slowly in order to perfect form, while slowly building speed and coordination as to preserve form. Picking and choosing tactics has proven to be not only fun, but an awesome mental and physical workout!

Are you just practicing moves in the air? That's a world different than practicing with a compliant partner, which is a world different than practicing with an uncompliant partner, which is a world of difference between fighting a real stranger intent on harming you.

Its like you're trying to learn to drive by reading books and turning an imaginary steering wheel.

I am going to exhaust my current library of resources before joining Anderson's Martial Arts in NYC's Chinatown. It is my understanding that it is hard to truly develop near flawless technique without a competent instructor and sparring partners.

If I were you, I'd join a gym/club/dojo first. New students who are know-it-alls from books and videos can be downright annoying to teach.

I highly recommend that instead of trying to learn d34dly styles from DVDs, you start watching MMA to get a feel for what works when someone's actually resisting, and how much punishment the human body can take without incurring "spinal reflexes". Don't get hung up on the he-can't-eyegouge-or-groin-strike nonsense; there's still much to be learned. Plus its way entertaining.

I will soon be posting my experiences with the DVD sets, books and DVDs and tutorials I have used, and was hoping you could tell me what would be the best subforum for that discussion.

Depends on the media.

I identified "The Armory" as the most self defense related subforum as per its description, but do not want to make assumptions that could be incorrect and aggravate everyone.

The Armory is mostly the weapons forum. I'd go for the traditional styles subforums or YMAS.

**NeilG** · 6/05/2014 11:20am,

Put your books away and join a dojo. Books are references for people who are training with instructors and sparring partners.

Also, pick one or two arts to learn, not 20. Try judo or BJJ to learn grappling. After you've got a year or three in that, maybe you can add some striking from somewhere else. You're not going to magically graft together bits and pieces from your DVD collection and become some super-fighter.

**Nicky Santoro** · 6/05/2014 11:53am,

Permalost,

Thank you for your detailed reply, it certainly gave me plenty of options to consider with regard to how I will move forward with actual training. However, I was hoping to clarify some points that may have been poorly stated in my original post:

Originally posted by Permalost View Post

Sorry to break this to you, but training with others is the ONLY way to develop true martial arts skills. You can't do it by books and DVDs alone.

To learn WHY, watch this video carefully: LINK REMOVED (NEW POSTER)

Around here, we advocate arts that train regularly with aliveness (not just practicing pre-set moves against pre-set attacks) because violence is dynamic and changing. Most of the arts you've listed there do not train that way.

Systema, krav, KFM, and TFT are all massively over-hyped in my opinion. I've trained in systema and enjoyed it but they mostly couldn't fight at full speed. I've done a little krav and it wasn't horrible but the training with actual people was key. I've seen the TFT DVDs and they assume that as soon as you lay your hands on someone they'll crumple like paper in a predictable way and that's not true. KFM looks like bastardized panuntukan with street clothes. Its mostly Batman hype and those skills are done better elsewhere.

I've done panuntukan and I'm all for it, but it must be sparred, it must use a partner, and the better the training is, the more it generally resembles training at a regular boxing gym.

Kali: There's good and bad kali but it must be learned and trained in person.

JKD: JKD isn't one style or method so its impossible to say too much.

While I think your high level observations on each of these disciplines are based on experience and a trained eye, your assumptions on my approach to them is for the most part, lacking.

I will be posting my opinions on the media I have been using in a separate post in the sub-forum you directed me to (Thank You for that, I realized Armory was weapons specific after I browsed it, I suppose the word Armory should have tipped me off...). For now, I will tell you this, disciplines such as TFT and KFM have some downright ridiculous tactics that, even to the untrained eye (as you pointed out), seem foolish and impractical. This is why I made it quite clear that I pick and choose what I like from each discipline, and I would hope you see this as supporting your point, which is valid.

Originally posted by Permalost View Post

Are you just practicing moves in the air? That's a world different than practicing with a compliant partner, which is a world different than practicing with an uncompliant partner, which is a world of difference between fighting a real stranger intent on harming you.

Its like you're trying to learn to drive by reading books and turning an imaginary steering wheel.

You seem to have the idea that I think I can learn solely from books, DVDs, etc. That is simply not correct, but maybe I gave you that impression so allow me to elaborate. It may seem second nature to you how to throw a punch, or an elbow, or kick, or any permutation of those strikes. However, it is not that way for me. Learning weight transfer, footwork, balance, form (To a limited extent) etc, at the simplest level can be studied and practiced, to some degree, using the media I have acquired. Can I perfect my form without an instructor? Of course not! Can I really get a feel for what it is to perform these strikes on a live opponent? Obviously not. However, I have to start somewhere and for me, the workout and the mental exercise is not only enjoyable, but a tremendous challenge. I am not at all disagreeing with you, but I don't think it is entirely fair to say that "punching in the air" is TOTALLY worthless.

Originally posted by Permalost View Post

You say you know the difference, but without a background in real martial arts, your filter is not likely to be very good, especially without sparring partners to hit you when you're doing something wrong.

Also consider that you can't really learn the nuance of technique from a movie, for several reasons:
-they are not teaching the technical details at all
-they do the motions big and dramatic for the big screen.
-you're only able to see one angle
-modern fight scenes (Bourne, etc) use lots of shakey cameras, weird angles and lots of editing

If you really, really insist on learning from videos, learn from instructionals, not Hollywood entertainment. Hollywood will tell you that you can use a crescent kick to knock a pistol out of someone's hand, and that Lucy Liu's acrobatic kicks in high heels can take out 5 muscular goons.

Forgive me for saying this sir, but I think it might be a bit unfair to say that I can't tell the difference between movie MA and reality MA. That is like saying I can't tell the difference between a football game in a movie and a real one - obviously one of the two is predetermined and choreographed like a broadway show.

I am pretty sure I said I was inspired to study these disciplines from watching these hollywood productions, but I can't see anywhere that I said I was intent on learning FROM said hollywood productions. However, maybe I was unclear in that point.

Originally posted by Permalost View Post

If I were you, I'd join a gym/club/dojo first. New students who are know-it-alls from books and videos can be downright annoying to teach.

I highly recommend that instead of trying to learn d34dly styles from DVDs, you start watching MMA to get a feel for what works when someone's actually resisting, and how much punishment the human body can take without incurring "spinal reflexes". Don't get hung up on the he-can't-eyegouge-or-groin-strike nonsense; there's still much to be learned. Plus its way entertaining.

I agree with you on joining a club or dojo first, although for the time being, my work schedule is quite erratic, which is why I resorted to my current "training" method.

I do watch MMA matches and against skilled, trained fighters, it is pretty clear that 75-80% of the groin-strike-eye-gouge nonsense, as you put it, is totally ineffective.

Know it alls are indeed, excruciatingly painful to teach. However, if I were a know it all, I assure you I wouldn't even be here. I like to think of myself as a sponge rather than a "Well I saw this and that in this book and you are doing it wrong" type of douchebag.

Thanks again for taking the time to critique my "training". I assure you that as soon as my work schedule moves away from constant travelling, I will be joining that Academy and training, for real! Your candid nature is appreciated, as I really should have elaborated more in my initial post rather than leaving a whole lot to the imagination. I learned my lesson.

Best,

Nicky

**Nicky Santoro** · 6/05/2014 12:03pm,

Originally posted by NeilG View Post

Put your books away and join a dojo. Books are references for people who are training with instructors and sparring partners.

Also, pick one or two arts to learn, not 20. Try judo or BJJ to learn grappling. After you've got a year or three in that, maybe you can add some striking from somewhere else. You're not going to magically graft together bits and pieces from your DVD collection and become some super-fighter.

Hi Neil,

The Academy I will be joining teaches Pencak Silat and JKD Streetfighting, so there is your two. You mean I can't become Jason Bourne by reading books? You have destroyed my outlook on life...Come on, really?

Forgive me for posing an amateurish question, but weren't Judo and BJJ intended for the ring, and limited self defense applications with regard to ground fighting, and as you pointed out, grappling? I picked the disciplines I mentioned as they seem to be more self defense specific. As in street fighting, neutralize threat and get the F out type of thing. I really have little interest in extensive ground fighting.

Your suggestions are helpful as if I ever consider MA competitions, but for my purposes I am not sure the fit is right. Am I off base here?

Thank You,

Nicky

**slamdunc** · 6/05/2014 12:05pm,

Welcome to Bullshido.

Carefully review the posts above mine and seek out a school / gym /dojo, etc. Also, search the site for posts relating to training in the method you described.

In the off-chance that you came here to troll, your first post was spot-on, but I'm sure it's nothing like that.

**Nicky Santoro** · 6/05/2014 12:17pm,

Originally posted by slamdunc View Post

Welcome to Bullshido.

Carefully review the posts above mine and seek out a school / gym /dojo, etc. Also, search the site for posts relating to training in the method you described.

In the off-chance that you came here to troll, your first post was spot-on, but I'm sure it's nothing like that.

Thanks for the welcome, Slam.

I hope my replies clear up some of the points made.

My initial post was an introduction, and I was hoping it would serve as a platform for critique and discussion, which it absolutely has. Your colleagues have given me some solid feedback, and I hope my responses convey that properly.

However, if that is what is construed as "Trolling" in this forum, you can certainly ban me, as I clearly made a serious mistake in joining. Thanks for the head up though.

Nicky

**thehonestone** · 6/05/2014 1:37pm,

Wow. Good thing you posted in newbietown. The only thing I'd add is regarding your "form". The thing I hate most about solo kata is people evaluating it on how it looks (which is largely irrelevant in terms of actual application) but at least there are some (if very few!) valid things to look for appearance-wise but you are not only having that done but it is being done by someone (i.e. you) too inexperienced to be doing that evaluation.

**mike321** · 6/05/2014 4:10pm,

Op,
Very close to 100% of martial artists do NOT need to develop a Martial Arts Style on their own. Everyone develops a personal style as they progress and actually learning the techniques that don't fit your body style is a requirement for being a proficient fighter. Find a solid school in a proven style and best of luck.

**Nicky Santoro** · 6/05/2014 9:31pm,

Hi All,

I posted several replies earlier but none of them appeared so I will do my best to summarize in response to all your suggestions.

It became apparent pretty quickly while watching the instructionals and reading my books that live training is the only REALISTIC training. The only instructionals I have any regard for are the ones where they demonstrate at full speed and full resistance, much like the Matt Thornton demonstration you posted, Permalost.

Permalost -

You seemed to get the impression I was trying to learn technique from the movies themselves, which is not only absurd, but pointless. In addition, I believe you mentioned that I don't know the difference between choreographed fight scenes in a movie and real life no holds barred violent conflicts. I might be new, and I do not have anywhere near your, or any of your colleagues' level of experience, but what I can tell you is that I do know the difference between a predetermined outcome where every move is directed like a Broadway show and real life, where anything can happen. Researching the fight choreographers and identifying the MAs they used to orchestrate Hollywood production fight scenes (For future research and study) is different than sitting in front of a TV, watching the Bourne Identity going "I want to do that" and thinking that taking down 5 CIA agents at a time can be learned on an airplane, from a video, in an hour. I am sure you didn't mean to insinuate I am a complete moron, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt on that one, as it is clear you were making a point and being helpful.

I can't agree with you more regarding some of the overhyped MAs I have been studying. While I do think certain tactics they employ can be effective in the right circumstances. I have shied away from TFT, Systema and KFM for fundamentals. In fact, TFT has a few good first strike tactics, but other than that, I can think of very few instances in which the extensive series of attacking moves would ever be able to be pulled off...most of it just seems impractical from a high level.

Neil -

I picked an Academy to join and even singled out the disciplines I am interested in - JKD Streetfighting, Kali Weapons Training, and Panantukan, all of which are classes in said Academy. The founder of this Academy, Anderson's Martial Arts, supposedly trained under Inosanto and is well regarded in the NY area. While I enjoy studying the list I initially posted, among others, there is no way I could, nor would need or want to become proficient in all of them. However, I must say I truly do enjoy comparing, contrasting and seeing what they do different. While the habit of mixing and matching will probably not do much for me when I begin formal training, it is a good mental exercise for me to go through the different permutations. Considering I am interested in the self defense aspect though, being well versed can't exactly hurt me, as many of the self defense oriented tactics tend to overlap from one discipline to another, reinforcing their importance.

Also Neil, do you mean to tell me I can't become Jason Bourne overnight? What a letdown. Honest question, have you ever had someone join and actually say they wanted to "Be like Jason Bourne/Batman/Liam Neeson in Taken etc"??? That would be truly frightening.

slamdunc -

If seeking feedback and constructive criticism on my initial post, both of which I have received already, is considered trolling then I misunderstood the purpose of joining and posting I suppose. I will re-review the rules of posting to ensure I did not inadvertently step on a landmine, and if I missed something, I do apologize.

Mike - Thanks for the encouragement. I did narrow down the disciplines I will be training in at the Academy to the three mentioned above, when I am able to join.

Your replies have me very eager to get past my busy season and start training. Really appreciate the candid advice you all took the time to provide.

**Nicky Santoro** · 6/06/2014 7:04am,

Thank You

Hi All,

I posted several replies earlier but none of them appeared so I will
do my best to summarize in response to all your suggestions.

It became apparent pretty quickly while watching the instructionals
and reading my books that live training is the only REALISTIC
training. The only instructionals I have any regard for are the ones
where they demonstrate at full speed and full resistance, much like
the Matt Thornton demonstration you posted, Permalost.

Permalost -

You seemed to get the impression I was trying to learn technique from
the movies themselves, which is not only absurd, but pointless.

In addition, I believe you mentioned that I don't know the difference
between choreographed fight scenes in a movie and real life no holds
barred violent conflicts. I might be new, and I do not have anywhere
near your, or any of your colleagues' level of experience, but what I
can tell you is that I do know the difference between a predetermined
outcome where every move is directed like a Broadway show and real
life, where anything can happen. I am sure you didn't mean to insinuate I am a complete moron, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt on that one, as it is clear you were making a point and being helpful.

Neil -

I picked an Academy to join and even singled out the disciplines I am
interested in - JKD Streetfighting, Kali Weapons Training, and Panantukan, all of which are classes in said Academy. Kali I want to dabble in because I want to learn to use my expandable batons that I have.

I must say I truly do enjoy comparing, contrasting and seeing what differentiates each discipline for one another. I spend a lot of time at work honing research and analytical skills so it carries over. I learned golf and table tennis the same way, books and vids on the plane and in hotels, then private coaches at my country club and a local table tennis club to actually train and develop.

Considering I am interested in the self defense aspect though, being well versed can't exactly hurt me, as many of the self defense oriented tactics tend to overlap from one discipline to another, as I am sure you already know. If this is totally off base, please let me know and point me in the right direction.

Thanks for pointing out that I won't become a super fighter from watching DVDs. I really thought watching "Become Jason Bourne in 24 Hours" would work, but I will return it for a refund after your comment.

slamdunc -

If seeking feedback and constructive criticism on my start into the MA world in considered trolling, then just ban me.

Mike -

Thanks for the encouragement. I did narrow down the
disciplines I will be training in at the Academy to the three
mentioned above, when I am able to join.

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