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To-Shin-Do: Anyone experience this art before?

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    To-Shin-Do: Anyone experience this art before?

    For those who aren't aware To-Shin-Do is the updated version of Ninjutsu founded by Stephen Hayes. You can find out more about it on it's Wikipedia page (sorry, still new and can't post links yet).

    I'd been out of training for a number of years but recently got back into it. Since I already received a black belt in one art I thought I'd try another. Growing up I was fascinated by Ninjutsu and I read all of Stephen Hayes' books and for a while I'd considered trying out this art.

    Is it effective for self-defense? What kind of techniques are taught?

    I found a school not far from where I live and I decided to try it out about six months ago.

    They don't spar - at all, and don't seem to believe it's worth even trying. I think I recall the instructor say how sparring is only for stroking the ego. The only kind of "sparring" they do is called "free response" where they move at about half to a quarter speed when attacking and the defender does a series of strikes, locks and throws against some kind of attack, like a knife stab, tackle or strike. Most of the defenses all seem very complicated, so much so that, if done quickly, I don't think would work against a determined attacker.

    I was pretty disappointed by this lack of sparring (since I'm used to a lot of it), but I decided to join after the trial was up to get more exposure to the art before making up my mind.

    Honestly, I'm not very impressed. They don't do any real contact at all. The only contact they do is this pushing kind of impact when they practice the techniques, which I don't believe would be that effective. It's explosive power that does damage, not pushing force. That pushing force might move someone, but it's not going to cause damage to the area struck (unless the person trips over something and gets hurt).

    One cool thing they do is jiu-jitsu. The instructor is ranked through the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Combatives program so we've been doing that the last few months. It's been interesting and fun to learn.

    Does anyone have anything else to add about To-Shin-Do? Or the Gracie Combatives program? I did see a thread here about the Combatives, but someone thought it was a scam because the testing is done through videos. I don't think that criticism is fair since from what I've heard the Gracies are very specific on exactly how they want you to do the techniques and won't pass you if you're not perfect. I also think you have to go down to the Gracie Academy to take a test in front of them to become officially certified and ranked after learning everything through their dvd series.

    #2
    Ahhhhh...... boy oh boy. This is the investigative forum read this thread to understand the rules for posting or starting threads in this area:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=57547

    We also have a google search which, will bring you these thread:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=61604
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=69751
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=45458
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=61604

    Also, depends on what you mean and which certification.
    This is the original Gracie Combatives:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=61440

    It is not to be mixed with the ficed and updated Gracie University form of Gracie Combatives:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82251

    https://www.gracieuniversity.com/default.aspx

    Which, since its inception, has distanced itself completely fromm the failed McDojo and Bullshidoist used Gracie Combatives program. You might want to see which one they are certified in or, better yet, just go learn BJJ or GJJ.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 3/24/2014 5:55pm, .

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      #3
      Thanks for the heads up on posting in this forum and for the links. I'll check em out when I can. They look interesting. I'm especially interested in this offshoot of Gracie Combatives. I've never heard that there are two different courses.

      Comment


        #4
        Are you sure this To Shi Do school was "the real"? Perhaps the instructor of the school you visited broke off from the original real group and cut out the sparring and all the good stuff? Are you sure you've been going long enough to make a fair judgement?

        Are you sure this To Shi Do school was "the real"? Perhaps the instructor of the school you visited broke off from the original real group and cut out the sparring and all the good stuff? Are you sure you've been going long enough to make a fair judgement?

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by DCM079 View Post
          Thanks for the heads up on posting in this forum and for the links. I'll check em out when I can. They look interesting. I'm especially interested in this offshoot of Gracie Combatives. I've never heard that there are two different courses.
          The Original Combatives program gave out Certificates with no trsting for purchasing their program. Many charlatans used this certificate to claim they had ground skills and understood BJJ.

          Gracie University may be the same program, but it is closely monitored and you have to actually live test to receive legit rank.

          Comment


            #6
            Hi jspeedy,

            Yes, I'm sure they are an official affiliate. If you Google "Phoenix Quest Center" you should be able to find their website. There is a picture of him, his wife, and Stephen Hayes at their school on the site, plus I've seen his hand written rank certificate on their wall.

            No, they don't do any sparring at all. That's one of the first things I asked when I joined the school and he said what I reported in the first post in this thread. I was really disappointed because I looked at several YouTube videos of To-Shin-Do training and it seemed like decent stuff.

            My guess is that he does it out of liability concerns and from what I gathered it seems like people used to hit a little too hard and that's when he stopped it. Still... that's part of self-defense training. I got my nose broken once and on a separate occasion I had to see a doctor about some very black and blue tender parts of my anatomy years ago.

            I'm pretty sure I've been there long enough to get a feel for the training. I've also watched a number of the higher belts and a lot of their training consists of the "free response" drills I mentioned before. It's been six months and I'm a yellow belt now and half way to the next rank.

            Comment


              #7
              jspeedy,

              Yes, I'm sure they are an official affiliate. If you Google "Phoenix Quest Center" you should be able to find their website. There is a picture of him, his wife, and Stephen Hayes at their school, plus I've seen his hand written rank certificate on their wall.

              No, they don't do any sparring at all. That's one of the first things I asked when I joined the school and he said what I reported in the first post in this thread. I was really disappointed because I looked at several YouTube videos of To-Shin-Do training and it seemed like decent stuff.

              My guess is that he does it out of liability concerns and from what I gathered it seems like people used to hit a little too hard and that's when he stopped it. Still... that's part of self-defense training. I got my nose broken once and on a separate occasion I had to see a doctor about some very black and blue tender parts of my anatomy years ago.

              I'm pretty sure I've been there long enough to get a feel for the training. I've also watched a number of the higher belts and a lot of their training consists of the “free response” drills I mentioned before. It's been six months and I'm a yellow belt now and half way to the next rank.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by jspeedy View Post
                Are you sure this To Shi Do school was "the real"? Perhaps the instructor of the school you visited broke off from the original real group and cut out the sparring and all the good stuff? Are you sure you've been going long enough to make a fair judgement?
                Yes, I'm sure. I've seen pictures on their website of the instructor and Stephen Hayes at the school; also his handwritten certification. I was very disappointed because that's one thing I was looking forward to, but from the sounds of things, I think the instructor believed students were getting too rough and decided to cut out any real contact. I've been there about six months and I've also watched several of the advanced students do their training on numerous occasions so I've seen that there is no sparring. Plus, the instructor came right out and told me that there is no sparring :0 )

                Comment


                  #9
                  I'm with IIF, if you're there because of the BJJ, you're going to be better off in the long run just going to train BJJ somewhere.

                  If you're there to play ninja, well... Play ninja all you want, but I think you're going to end up feeling mighty disappointed. So you're still better off finding a BJJ school.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I looked at the website, where is his combatives certification?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Are we talking the Phoenix Quest Centre?

                      If so:
                      Spoiler:

                      Michael Akitoshi Stinson has been training in the martial arts for over 20 years and has studied with many notable martial arts masters including Anshu Stephen K. Hayes, Masaaki Hatsumi, Rorion Gracie, Relson Gracie and many others.

                      During that time he has earned a 4th degree black in To-Shin Do, a blue belt in Nova Uniao Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and a blue belt in the Gracie Combatives self defense Jiu-Jitsu program.
                      http://www.yelp.com.au/biz/phoenix-q...-arts-chandler

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Styygens View Post
                        I'm with IIF, if you're there because of the BJJ, you're going to be better off in the long run just going to train BJJ somewhere.

                        If you're there to play ninja, well... Play ninja all you want, but I think you're going to end up feeling mighty disappointed. So you're still better off finding a BJJ school.
                        His BJJ seems relatively solid,but he is only a blue belt, but has trained in Eddie Bravo's system for a long time in the past.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by cualltaigh View Post
                          Are we talking the Phoenix Quest Centre?

                          If so:
                          Yep. That's the school right there...and that's about how fast and about how much force is used in training. Uhhh... so unrealistic. Despite that though, they are nice people and fun to train with. They are just delusional about the effectiveness of what they practice, but that's not uncommon in most dojos. I thought I was king karate when I was in TKD learning the self-defense techniques so I can relate.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by It is Fake View Post
                            I looked at the website, where is his combatives certification?
                            It's on the wall in the school. Not on the website. It's written in mostly Japanese by Stephen Hayes if I'm not mistaken.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by doofaloofa
                              seperate
                              The best part? You know, this wasn't part of your joke.

                              Comment

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