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  • W. Rabbit
    replied
    Originally posted by kamadul View Post
    Stick to the topic.

    Leave a comment:


  • ChenPengFi
    replied
    Originally posted by Vieux Normand View Post
    No, what you and cameldung are now doing is just trolling. If it were more than a 1/10 job, I might play along.

    Back to basics, then you two can go play. Extensor muscles are so called because extend a joint. The muscles themselves do not extend. That's why, genius, they aren't termed extended muscles.

    By contracting concentrically, the triceps extends the lower arm, with the biceps and brachialis acting as brakes, via eccentric contraction, so you're less likely to hyper your elbow.

    Lesson over. Run along and play.

    No, you're just a drunk/punchdrunk fair-weather Frenchy.
    You should just avoid using jargon and stick to lay terms.
    Lengthen/shorten instead of eccentric/concentric contraction, for example.



    If you want to render the term "contraction" meaningless by being ambiguous, i can likewise be ambiguous about what or how a muscle is extending.


    Priceless indeed!

    Leave a comment:


  • W. Rabbit
    replied
    Everyone knows the real reason for exhalation is the ultra kiai.

    The best are 100% silent and deadly. For instance, you can barely tell at first George Dillman is in this video.

    100% silent and deadly.



    Legend has it, of course, the ultimate secret counter to the ultra kiai is holding your toe down. Many martial artists had to die to bring us this information.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 1/23/2014 3:11pm, .

    Leave a comment:


  • kamadul
    replied
    Originally posted by Vieux Normand View Post
    No, what you and cameldung are now doing is just trolling. If it were more than a 1/10 job, I might play along.

    Back to basics, then you two can go play. Extensor muscles are so called because extend a joint. The muscles themselves do not extend. That's why, genius, they aren't termed extended muscles.

    By contracting concentrically, the triceps extends the lower arm, with the biceps and brachialis acting as brakes, via eccentric contraction, so you're less likely to hyper your elbow.

    Lesson over. Run along and play.

    Trolling? All you have is ad hominems and a very poor understanding of human physiology. You're making yourself look like an idiot.

    The original post referred to why a boxer exhales when he punches. Stick to the topic.

    I gave you what you need to prove to yourself that what I'm saying is real. If you choose to remain willfully ignorant because your misconception about something that you read in a book doesn't jibe with the reality then by all means, go right ahead.
    Last edited by kamadul; 1/23/2014 2:30pm, .

    Leave a comment:


  • Vieux Normand
    replied
    Originally posted by ChenPengFi View Post
    Since you're so fond of word games, i'll just point out there are a whole slew of extensor muscles, that, yes, extend.

    You know, like Extensor carpi radialis longus...

    See, i can play that way too...
    No, what you and cameldung are now doing is just trolling. If it were more than a 1/10 job, I might play along.

    Back to basics, then you two can go play. Extensor muscles are so called because extend a joint. The muscles themselves do not extend. That's why, genius, they aren't termed extended muscles.

    By contracting concentrically, the triceps extends the lower arm, with the biceps and brachialis acting as brakes, via eccentric contraction, so you're less likely to hyper your elbow.

    Lesson over. Run along and play.

    Leave a comment:


  • ChenPengFi
    replied
    Since you're so fond of word games, i'll just point out there are a whole slew of extensor muscles, that, yes, extend.

    You know, like Extensor carpi radialis longus...

    See, i can play that way too...

    Leave a comment:


  • Vieux Normand
    replied
    Originally posted by kamadul View Post
    That's a cute theory about how things are supposed to work. I'm talking from experience about how they actually do.
    Experience in what alternate universe? The one where you actually know what you're talking about?

    Try it. Inhale deeply and hold it. Let someone hit you in the bread basket. Now do it again while exhaling. Report back with your results.
    In my job (the one I've done--alongside other occupations--since 1983 when it helped pay the tuition for my two kinesiology degrees), I've been taken bodyshots, hands, feet, bluntforce strikes of all sorts.

    You want a report? Sure: as I've always done sufficient core work to do my job, it hasn't mattered what phase of my breathing cycle I was in when struck. I withstood any strikes that got past my other defenses and went home safe after shift.

    If you want to try and predict exactly when, in your breathing cycle, you'll get hit when dealing with a crowd of drunks, be my guest. I'll just continue doing my unenlightened and outdated core work.

    Leave a comment:


  • ChenPengFi
    replied
    Originally posted by Vieux Normand View Post
    Concentric contraction is muscle slowing down a concentric contraction on the other side of a joint. What is is about this that you don't understand?
    That's not happening, exhalation is passive for the most part.
    You questioned the action, your weaseling is funny.


    Wait...you're claiming that muscle fibres actually extend?

    Priceless.

    Passively, yes.
    Prime mover vs antagonist.
    It's you that is implying they can transmit force that way, not me.

    And you're wrong, btw.

    Leave a comment:


  • ChenPengFi
    replied
    The diaphragm also does not have a true antagonist.
    A dead body can exhale, just like Resuci-Annie...

    Leave a comment:


  • Vieux Normand
    replied
    Originally posted by ChenPengFi View Post
    Conflating "eccentric contraction" with "contraction" is fallacious.
    Eccentric contraction is muscle slowing down a concentric contraction on the other side of a joint. What is is about this that you don't understand?

    Eccentric contraction IS relaxation/extension.
    Wait...you're claiming that muscle fibres actually extend?

    Priceless.
    Last edited by Vieux Normand; 1/23/2014 2:02pm, .

    Leave a comment:


  • kamadul
    replied
    Originally posted by Vieux Normand View Post
    Did anyone say it was?



    Go look up the musculature-related terms "agonist" and "antagonist." Muscles either provide and action via the former (concentric contraction) or put brakes on the opposite action (eccentric contraction). The classic examples being biceps and triceps working "against" each other.



    Along with eccentric contraction provided by the diaphragm to keep the abs and intercostals from going too far, too fast. This allows for the measured stability and lessens the chance of injury.



    Controlled via maintained eccentric contraction where tension is gradually lessened, but never to zero-level.



    From you, this is expected and so no comment is needed.



    You still do not get it, do you?



    Not half as amusing as the fact that this is how you read it.

    Straw-man much?
    That's a cute theory about how things are supposed to work. I'm talking from experience about how they actually do.

    Try it. Inhale deeply and hold it. Let someone hit you in the bread basket. Now do it again while exhaling. Report back with your results.

    Leave a comment:


  • ChenPengFi
    replied
    Originally posted by Vieux Normand View Post
    So, on your home planet, the act of exhaling relaxes the diaphragm?
    Yes, the planet Earth.

    The diaphragmatic muscles can contract (to cause exhalation) and relax at the same time?

    Your fallacy of definition is simply weasel wording away from the above.
    Conflating "eccentric contraction" with "contraction" is fallacious.
    Eccentric contraction IS relaxation/extension.


    Keep swimming in that vodka.

    Leave a comment:


  • Vieux Normand
    replied
    Originally posted by ChenPengFi View Post
    What you are saying isn't unique to the diaphragm.
    Did anyone say it was?

    The "action" of the diaphragm is inhalation, period.
    Go look up the musculature-related terms "agonist" and "antagonist." Muscles either provide and action via the former (concentric contraction) or put brakes on the opposite action (eccentric contraction). The classic examples being biceps and triceps working "against" each other.

    Forced exhalation is from the abdominals and intercostals.
    Along with eccentric contraction provided by the diaphragm to keep the abs and intercostals from going too far, too fast. This allows for the measured stability and lessens the chance of injury.

    An eccentric contraction is a controlled extension,
    Controlled via maintained eccentric contraction where tension is gradually lessened, but never to zero-level.

    ...that's just you trying to waffle.
    From you, this is expected and so no comment is needed.

    Relaxing the diaphragm DOES cause exhalation, and contracting it DOES cause inhalation.
    You still do not get it, do you?

    That you are trying to imply that the diaphragm can force air out via relaxing is hilarious.
    Not half as amusing as the fact that this is how you read it.

    Straw-man much?
    Last edited by Vieux Normand; 1/23/2014 1:40pm, .

    Leave a comment:


  • ChenPengFi
    replied
    LOL...
    Go soak your head in more vodka.
    What you are saying isn't unique to the diaphragm.
    The "action" of the diaphragm is inhalation, period.
    Forced exhalation is from the abdominals and intercostals.
    An eccentric contraction is a controlled extension, that's just you trying to waffle.

    Relaxing the diaphragm DOES cause exhalation, and contracting it DOES cause inhalation.

    That you are trying to imply that the diaphragm can force air out via relaxing is hilarious.



    Here, have some wiki:

    During quiet breathing, there is little or no muscle contraction/relaxation involved in expiration. This process is simply driven by the elastic recoil of the lungs in healthy individuals. In certain conditions the elasticity of the lung can be lost, such as in emphysema. Forced or active expiration occurs in such individuals as well as occurring during exercise. The abdominal muscles and the internal and innermost intercostal muscles help expel air.

    Leave a comment:


  • Vieux Normand
    replied
    Newsflash to various and sundry geniuses: on this particular planet, human diaphragmatic muscles are always under tension due to their position in the body.

    They are either contracting concentrically (during inhalation) or contracting eccentrically (during exhalation). During forced exhalation, the latter happens simultaneously with actions of other abdominal muscles.

    Human diaphragmatic muscles are never completely relaxed until, sometime after you die, their origins and/or insertions rot away.

    Have a nice day.

    Leave a comment:

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