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Your Martial Art Sucks: Ninja Defeat to the Closed Guard

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    #16
    Originally posted by BJMills View Post
    When you see he crap Hatsumi does that people randomly fall over for it makes me think there is this whole culture of compliance that even the instructors buy into after awhile.

    So on one hand maybe Hayes is a victim of the culture he is surrounded by, but on the other I thought his whole Toshindo approach (from what I've read I have no personal experience) was to work some of the ninjer stuff in a more pressure tested environment... which means he should know better...
    ////Major disclaimer: this just stuff I half remember and may be making up///////////

    I've heard stories that Hayes originated the culture of compliance in teh Booj. Back in the day, Hatsumi was a judo guy who was making his students do a bunch of esoteric shite where they were supposed to find their own way of doing things.

    He didn't have many long term students.

    Then Hayes came along and took what he was doing and turned what Hatsumi was doing into something much more marketable.

    He made bank.

    Hatsumi saw this and he was kind of angry. He wasn't angry that Hayes was watering down his creation. He was angry that Hayes was making bank. A declaration was made that Hayes was not one bit legit and no one should do what he was doing. Then Hatsumi started doing what he was doing because it was making major cheddar.

    ////End disclaimer. Lets face it kids, I'm probably making most of this up to get attention.////

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      #17
      Originally posted by CrackFox View Post
      ////End disclaimer. Lets face it kids, I'm probably making most of this up to get attention.////
      Like they do in ninjutsu?

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        #18
        Originally posted by BJMills View Post
        I have a question for anyone who has experience with the man or the org, do you think Hayes knows any better? Or do you think he sat there analyzing the guard and came up with a solution he genuinely thinks will work?
        I attended one seminar taught by Hayes in 2013. Based on some Q&A with Hayes and the content of his seminar, I don't think Hayes himself is very interested in BJJ/Submission Grappling. It's just that in today's environment, you need to have some kind of "groundwork" in your mix.

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          #19
          Originally posted by Styygens View Post
          I attended one seminar taught by Hayes in 2013. Based on some Q&A with Hayes and the content of his seminar, I don't think Hayes himself is very interested in BJJ/Submission Grappling. It's just that in today's environment, you need to have some kind of "groundwork" in your mix.
          So... Does he really believe that kind if groundwork (and I use the term loosely) is legit?

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            #20
            Originally posted by BJMills View Post
            So... Does he really believe that kind if groundwork (and I use the term loosely) is legit?
            Keep in mind, you're essentially asking me to put words in his mouth, but that said...

            Yes, I think he believes it is "legit" or he wouldn't be demoing it. And I put "legit" in quotes because I also suspect he'd include a bunch of caveats. Something like, "untrained attacker who's seen UFC matches..." blah blah blah.

            Remember, I said I did ONE seminar with him last year. All I can say is that based on my interactions with him, he's not very interested in groundwork and he didn't demonstrate anything very well-developed. I personally would not choose Hayes as my grappling instructor. I'm another datapoint, not the conclusion.

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              #21
              Originally posted by Plasma View Post
              I don't blame them though. Guard passing it one of the toughest aspects of grappling especially against an active guard player. To see these gimmick moves that look like a magic bullet to the untrained eye gives a sense of wonder, and in their mind, a leg up against a very real threat. It's similar to the Wing Chun defenses against a boxing jab.

              I feel pity for the students. I blame the instructors.
              True that. I have to admit that, for a moment, that "sense of wonder" hit me and I thought, 'hey, maybe Hayes has something'. That feeling didn't last long and that's most entirely due to what I've learned about grappling on this site.

              I do agree with your assessment. It's like Mr. Miyagi told Daniel, "No such thing bad student, only bad teacher. Teacher say, student do." It worries me that students will actually think that such technique against, as you aptly put, a very real threat. The question in my mind is the same one some other folks have stated: is this training the result of what Hayes went through and was exposed to or he is making these moves up on the fly?

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                #22
                Originally posted by BJMills View Post
                I have a question for anyone who has experience with the man or the org, do you think Hayes knows any better? Or do you think he sat there analyzing the guard and came up with a solution he genuinely thinks will work?

                When you see he crap Hatsumi does that people randomly fall over for it makes me think there is this whole culture of compliance that even the instructors buy into after awhile.

                So on one hand maybe Hayes is a victim of the culture he is surrounded by, but on the other I thought his whole Toshindo approach (from what I've read I have no personal experience) was to work some of the ninjer stuff in a more pressure tested environment... which means he should know better...

                The irrationality of ninjers is so befuddling!
                Honestly I do not know. I know Hayes was an Okinawan Karateka before training with Hatsumi and Tanemura for a week and starting Shadows of Iga. I know he went back to Japan after that to train with the Dojo that would eventually become the Bujinkan.

                I never heard of him having any submission wrestling training. I believe he analyzed the guard and developed something within the movements he knows, something he thinks will work. Hence why I blame him. That technique shows an obvious lack of understanding about the position.

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by Holy Moment View Post
                  This isn't supposed to be a closed guard escape. It's a defense against a professional wrestling-style body scissors submission, hence why the video is titled "Scissor Lock Escape" and he uses a Half Boston Crab.

                  That BJJ shit won't help you against this:











                  I remember Scott "The Texas Ninja" Morris did an STF Lock during the informational feature in UFC 2. I was expecting the same thing here when the dude went for a Half Boston.

                  I started with video #4. At first, I was amused by the poor technique, but I found myself interested. As I watched, my interest grew. Half way through, I was interested... interested... INTERESTED... and I suddenly lost interest.

                  I switched to video #1. I was kind of creeped out, shocked, disappointed, then a little interested, then disgusted, then interested again... interested... INTERESTED... and I suddenly lost interest.

                  After an hour and a snack, I tried #2. Couldn't get into it. Went back to #1. Interested...

                  (With apologies to Kevin Nealon)

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