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    The 'brown' choke

    One of the more famous urban legends - Steven Segal says he can't be choked, LeBell says he can be and turns his lights off while Segal 'goes to the bathroom there'.

    Question: Does anyone know is something like that possible?

    I mean, I know that when you die (in car crash for example, sometimes naturally) or in moments of extreme fear,... it's not unusual for a person to pee himself as some muscles get relaxed too much. So to add a brownie seems plausible while getting choked.



    Can any expert choker validate, that there is a choke that can achieve what Gene claims (distinct one or usual ones we learn with proper tightness, technique,... relaxing body muscles enough) at the will of the one applying the hold or at least can lead to this result in some cases? I would like to know without volunteering for a test subject :-).
    Last edited by Stickybomb; 12/21/2013 1:34pm, .

    #2
    I don't know about the brownie, but I've seen people pee themselves when choked out. Seems feasible if the hopper was loaded.

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      #3
      My thoughts exactly.

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        #4
        Possible, not because of the choke itself but by fear.

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          #5
          Somebody posted a video on here recently of Gene Lebel choking someone out in a demo and the poor kid loses bladder control. So it's a real documented phenomenon.

          I cannot recall which thread though. I'm also glad I didn't have to clean those mats...

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            #6
            You mean this?

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              #7
              Originally posted by Holy Moment View Post
              That's the one!

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                #8
                Adrenal response. Some people, when injected with an amp of epinephrine(adrenaline to you folks), will literally shit themselves. Other effects are elevated BP, flushed skin, increased heart rate, pissing and getting an erection. Cleaned too many patients to forget those things.

                IIRC, Gene Lebell said that he can choke you two ways: nice and gentle, sending you to sleep and getting you to piss yourself.

                Same things happen in executions by hanging. Just sayin...

                Originally posted by DCS View Post
                Possible, not because of the choke itself but by fear.
                Almost did myself on my first day of BJJ. I was going like "What that hell am I doing letting others too near my neck?" Had the same sensation slightly when visiting the barber.

                I cut my own hair now.

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by baby_cart View Post
                  Other effects are elevated BP, flushed skin, increased heart rate, pissing and getting an erection.
                  I call that action the "David Carradine"

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                    #10
                    Just to confirm, peeing oneself after being strangled unconscious absolutely. Never seen a "brown out" though.

                    Good reason to empty the bladder and bowels before training for sure !

                    Katsuhiko Kashiwazaki in his Ippon Series book on Shime Waza describe the possible effects. In Japanese judo colloquy being choked out is known as "Ochiru".

                    I've been choke out many, many times, most recently while teaching one of my younger students. Never pissed myself though (yet).

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                      #11
                      I'd been told that there was the four second "nice" choke, and the quick hit the nerves "mean" choke and that one was the one that made people pee and poo and Gene Lebell used the mean one on Seagull. So this is bs?
                      "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by Stickybomb View Post
                        One of the more famous urban legends - Steven Segal says he can't be choked, LeBell says he can be and turns his lights off while Segal 'goes to the bathroom there'. Question: Does anyone know is something like that possible? I mean, I know that when you die (in car crash for example, sometimes naturally) or in moments of extreme fear,... it's not unusual for a person to pee himself as some muscles get relaxed too much.

                        So to add a brownie seems plausible while getting choked. Can any expert choker validate, that there is a choke that can achieve what Gene claims (distinct one or usual ones we learn with proper tightness, technique,... relaxing body muscles enough) at the will of the one applying the hold or at least can lead to this result in some cases? I would like to know without volunteering for a test subject :-).
                        Gene claimed nothing of the sort.

                        Gene is a classy guy, and most of the tales you've heard of his exaggerations are, in fact, exaggerations and tales themselves.

                        Now, I will quote for truth, and please ask that you stop spreading lies about my favorite judoka.

                        Ariel Helwani: "I've had the privilege and honor of interviewing one Sensei Steven Seagal."

                        Gene LeBell:AH:GL: "Well, if a guy soils himself, you can't criticize him, because if they just had a nice big dinner an hour before, you might have a tendency to do that.
                        "Steven Seagal is a very outstanding martial artist. I've got nothing against Steven.

                        "Personally, myself I don't think he's taught these mixed martial artists how to win a match.

                        "He's done a lot for martial arts. But I know where he's insulted Randy Couture. Well, Randy Couture if he ever got mad would have him for lunch.
                        "And that isn't to put down Steven, but 'closed mouth don't catch any foot.'

                        AH: So, did that happen?

                        GL: You can't be bragadocious if you've done something. Everybody has their individual things that have happened. I personally don't think you should put down, as many people do with Steven, because he's trying to do his best.

                        AH: So does that mean, Gene, that you will not confirm this actually took place?

                        GL:
                        Last edited by W. Rabbit; 12/23/2013 2:40pm, .

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                          #13
                          Thank you for correcting me with apologies to Gene, I set up this thread a bit wrong - I should think over about who made the claim I stated a bit more.

                          Btw I'd give my right testicle to be able to attend regular courses in Hayastan academy for a few years.
                          Last edited by Stickybomb; 12/23/2013 3:17pm, .

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                            #14
                            Gene isn't just classy he's also honorable. Old school honorable. The kind of fighter that doesn't speak ill of a defeated opponent and he certainly wouldn't promote petty rumors putting down another martial artist and aggrandizing himself. The guy is a master. He stands upon his own laurels and doesn't need to take cheap shots at Steven Segal to look good. He's smart enough to know that riding the "brown choke" story would be really more disgraceful to himself than Segal.

                            If the story really did happen Lebel will never in a million years admit it. Rabbits quote pretty much affirms that. Segal will never in his life admit it either. Segal can't take the ego hit and Lebel doesn't need the ego boost.

                            So in the end you just gotta go with what you believe. I think something did happen though there may be more urban legen than truth in the story. Gene did get 86'd from the crew on Under Seige. Something did happen between him and Segal resulting in neither wanting to work professionally with each other afterwords. From the way the subject is danced around on both sides I kind of get the impression that something did happen. For all of Lebel's gentle treatment of the subject he's never once said plainly "that didn't happen and you shouldn't believe everything you hear."

                            The big questions is were poopy pants actually involved or was it just a normal argument and some of the eye witnesses decided to add some really outrageous embellishments?
                            Last edited by Mr. Machette; 12/23/2013 4:22pm, .

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by patfromlogan View Post
                              I'd been told that there was the four second "nice" choke, and the quick hit the nerves "mean" choke and that one was the one that made people pee and poo and Gene Lebell used the mean one on Seagull. So this is bs?
                              4 seconds would be pretty quick, pretty much perfectly applied strangle. You can press on the throat/trachea, which is very painful, but may not cut off blood flow.

                              Nerves are effected in most strangles I know of in Judo (Shime Waza), specifically the Vagus Nerve. I've never heard of such a gradation from nice to pooping oneself, LOL.

                              However, Gene may well have esoteric knowledge unknown to me. The one clinic I went to with him he had an encyclopedic knowledge of submissions for sure.

                              I guess you would want to start with confirming that Seagull really pooped his pants.

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