Grapplers are not fighters:

[Omega Supreme]

So I had this discussion with a student of mine awhile ago. She could not understand why I didn't consider Jiu Jitsu players fighters. At the time I did not have the right words. I simply told her that it is simply the same for Judo, Wrestlers, and other competitive grapplers. I just don't feel like they are fighters. Well I think I've found the right words.

When two "krotty" guys are point fighting I don't consider them fighters either. I don't consider Sumo fighters and I don't consider fencing fighting. Why? Because of the intention of the force they are using. In a fight the intention is try to hurt somebody and knock them out, send them to the hospital; not get points, not make somebody give up, not pin them.

So unless a Jiu Jitsu player wants to put the gloves on and go MMA then we can call him a Jiu Jitsu fighter. Of course there are other arguments which is why I wanted to open up this thread.

[Krijgsman]

Despite being almost entirely a Judo guy, I agree. Whenever people around my clubs said "Judo fight" I cringed. On the other hand, approaching your grappling with the intensity of a fight is probably a must if you want to be a champion. And this fight vs grapple may be partially because of how specialized the rule sets of the sports are, rather than vale tudo or similar settings where jiu jitsu or judo (or wrestling, etc) might be used.

[Charles Brown]

So I had this discussion with a student of mine awhile ago. She could not understand why I didn't consider Jiu Jitsu players fighters. At the time I did not have the right words. I simply told her that it is simply the same for Judo, Wrestlers, and other competitive grapplers. I just don't feel like they are fighters. Well I think I've found the right words.

When two "krotty" guys are point fighting I don't consider them fighters either. I don't consider Sumo fighters and I don't consider fencing fighting. Why? Because of the intention of the force they are using. In a fight the intention is try to hurt somebody and knock them out, send them to the hospital; not get points, not make somebody give up, not pin them.

So unless a Jiu Jitsu player wants to put the gloves on and go MMA then we can call him a Jiu Jitsu fighter. Of course there are other arguments which is why I wanted to open up this thread.

Then they should take submissions out of MMA?

[Omega Supreme]

Then they should take submissions out of MMA?

You can win a boxing match via submission too.

[Devil]

Agreed. I hate hearing BJJ guys refer to a match at a grappling tournament as a fight.

[Krijgsman]

To me: Boxing match. Kickboxing match. Judo match. Jiu Jistu match. MMA FIGHT! *justbleedguy.gif*

[Holy Moment]

You can actually win via knockout in Sumo, being that full-contact palm strikes are allowed to the face. The ultimate criteria used to determine a winner, however, is which wrestler touches the ground or is pushed out of the ring first, so I guess you could argue causing unconsciousness is a means to an end rather than the end itself in the case of Sumo.

[Omega Supreme]

You can actually win via knockout in Sumo, being that full-contact palm strikes are allowed to the face. The ultimate criteria used to determine a winner, however, is which wrestler touches the ground or is pushed out of the ring first, so I guess you could argue causing unconsciousness is a means to an end rather than the end itself in the case of Sumo.

Yeah, that would be my argument.

[Keslet]

To me: Boxing match. Kickboxing match. Judo match. Jiu Jistu match. MMA FIGHT! *justbleedguy.gif*

If the criteria is the intent to cause harm (rather than just point fighting, pins, or form competitions) wouldn't boxing and kickboxing still be considered fights? They use a more limited rule set than MMA...is that another consideration?

[jnp]

Agreed. I hate hearing BJJ guys refer to a match at a grappling tournament as a fight.

This. While I've never heard a wrestler refer to a wrestling match as a fight, I've heard more than a few BJJ guys say they were "fighting this weekend" when talking about attending a grappling tournament.

You are not fighting. You are hugging each other vigorously.

[DCS]

This. While I've never heard a wrestler refer to a wrestling match as a fight, I've heard more than a few BJJ guys say they were "fighting this weekend" when talking about attending a grappling tournament.

I think this is a translation issue from Portuguese to English, something like to the use of 'professor'.

[submessenger]

So I had this discussion with a student of mine awhile ago. She could not understand why I didn't consider Jiu Jitsu players fighters...

Of course, you're right. I am guilty of talking about my next "fight." Problem is, despite the "human chess," of grappling/BJJ - and I like chess - I have a really hard time calling what I do a match. The tennis nuts in the office might will get the wrong idea.

Can we have a one-syllable word that is between "match," and "fight," in severity? I'm open to suggestions... bout? feud? duel (depending on your dialect)?

[Ming Loyalist]

So I had this discussion with a student of mine awhile ago. She could not understand why I didn't consider Jiu Jitsu players fighters. At the time I did not have the right words. I simply told her that it is simply the same for Judo, Wrestlers, and other competitive grapplers. I just don't feel like they are fighters. Well I think I've found the right words.

When two "krotty" guys are point fighting I don't consider them fighters either. I don't consider Sumo fighters and I don't consider fencing fighting. Why? Because of the intention of the force they are using. In a fight the intention is try to hurt somebody and knock them out, send them to the hospital; not get points, not make somebody give up, not pin them.

So unless a Jiu Jitsu player wants to put the gloves on and go MMA then we can call him a Jiu Jitsu fighter. Of course there are other arguments which is why I wanted to open up this thread.

anyone who has been in a full contact striking match (a fight) and competed in grappling should be able to understand this.

i sure as hell know that i do. i also *clearly* remember the last time i was hit really hard (resulting in a fracture of my orbital socket) and i very clearly remember telling myself "well. that's it, i'm done with fighting. i don't ever want to be hit that hard again." it was several years ago. i have not fought since.

i competed in a judo tournament over the weekend.

edit: to be clear, i say a full contact striking match, because all of the "street fights" i have been in were really lame, and not nearly as intense as a judo tournament. so i don't rate "street fights" very highly unless i have video to watch.

[cereus]

I take the same point of view as Josh Barnett, on the Joe Rogan experience he said something along the lines that it doesn't matter what you train or how badass you are in the gym unless you step into a ring or cage with another human being who wants to break you then you are not a fighter. In a grappling match even if you always fight for a finish you don't intend to really hurt your opponent, you want to win but I don't think you set out to really hurt anyone. In full contact striking or MMA you win by doing damage until the other guy gives up or can't fight (knockout/stoppage).

So basically I agree but you have to actually get in a ring and fight someone to be a fighter, not just train in MMA or striking.

[Kung-Fu Joe]

I'll come out of Bullshido retirement to be the dissenting opinion in this thread.

While I don't personally refer to my grappling matches as "fights," I don't begrudge anyone who does. To me, a fight just means a violent, strategic contest. Besides martial arts, I also play the game of Go. Intense tactical exchanges in Go are referred to by players as "fighting," where you are attempting to "kill" your opponents groups while keeping yours "alive." Similarly, I consider an intense back-and-forth grappling exchange with attacks, counters, and scrambles to be worthy of being called a "fight."

The problem with limiting the word "fight" to striking sports is that it is absolutely a slippery slope. "MMA? That's not a fight. There's no referee or rounds in a real fight!"

"A street scuffle? That's not a fight. Nobody's pulling a weapon on you!"

"An outlaw biker brawl? That's not a fight. There's no tanks or heavy ordnance."


Yes, grappling is a very different kind of fight than boxing, but that doesn't make it less of a fight. Why do we always hear about how grappling isn't a "fight," but nobody ever complains when someone says, "I'm fighting a cold?"