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Alive Training in Aikido - Suggestions?

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  • CapnMunchh
    replied
    Originally posted by svt2026 View Post
    I understand the point you are making, why take any other style because when you end up fighting it looks like kickboxing/mma/bjj anyway. So why go about the long way to get to the same thing by training other styles. I think a lot of people miss the point that training other styles give you different tactics and different approach to fighting. Holding your hands up and punching a guy will look like boxing, kicking will look like kick boxing. So what. No good instructor will teach you to fight using a horse stance, its just for practice. TKD or sport karate look the way they do in sparing due to the rule set in the sport competition. This is an evolution of what it used to look like (kick boxing) due to the rules instituted. I trained in hapkido and tkd and never once was I told to fight using a back stance or horse stance and always hold your hands up.

    There is depth that is missing in all styles and cross training can benefit anyone. Im sure Omega can agree since he trained in like 30 styles last time I seen.

    Don't get me wrong -- I'm not trying to dis traditional styles. I agree that there is value in learning all legitimate styles (chi ball throwing excepted), and that there are principles that can be learned from different arts that can help general fighting ability. I believe Aikido practice can contribute a lot and I still train in that system from time to time; tho its generally accepted that it does not work well for self defense unless its supplemented. Also, not everyone studies MA just to learn to fight.

    But if your goal is learning to fight/defend yourself effectively within a relatively short period of time, say 3-5 yrs (of course, "short" is arbitrary), then the MMA model is the most efficient way to go. I'm not an expert on the history of MA, but I have read, and I think its true, that historically there have been Chinese and Japanese styles that combined striking, joint locking/throwing, and ground technique, that eventually came to focus on just one of those fighting ranges. The idea of training this way is supported by modern day military training, which by necessity needs to be practical, well rounded, and learnable in less than a lifetime. Its no coincidence that military training has "discovered" the value of ground training in the last decade or so.

    The MMA scenario is naturally different from combat or street fighting conditions, but its still more permissive than what you get in the typical TKD, judo, or Shotokan tournament, and therefore its the most accurate way to test raw fighting ability.

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  • svt2026
    replied
    Originally posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    Looks like Aikido guy did get in a wristlock at one point for a take down (kotegaishi). He also did a couple of Aikidoish back rolls. The rest of it mostly resembled a MMA match, particularly when they go to the ground.

    There are other Aikido v. XXX videos listed on the same page. The ones that look like real matches also end up looking more like MMA than anything else -- judo/BJJ +kickboxing/muy thai. Going back to the original topic of this thread, when you try non-compliant Aikido sparring and take out the Aikido conventions (no striking, no takedowns, etc.) it all ends up looking like MMA. Someone else on this thread, or maybe another recent thread, pointed out that when you put people from any different styles in a cage, and use MMA rules, it all ends up looking like MMA. You may see the occasional wristlock or flying TKD kick, but mostly its boxing and rolling. Makes sense, since that gives you the flexibility to use whatever works, and different people like to use different techniques.
    I understand the point you are making, why take any other style because when you end up fighting it looks like kickboxing/mma/bjj anyway. So why go about the long way to get to the same thing by training other styles. I think a lot of people miss the point that training other styles give you different tactics and different approach to fighting. Holding your hands up and punching a guy will look like boxing, kicking will look like kick boxing. So what. No good instructor will teach you to fight using a horse stance, its just for practice. TKD or sport karate look the way they do in sparing due to the rule set in the sport competition. This is an evolution of what it used to look like (kick boxing) due to the rules instituted. I trained in hapkido and tkd and never once was I told to fight using a back stance or horse stance and always hold your hands up.

    There is depth that is missing in all styles and cross training can benefit anyone. Im sure Omega can agree since he trained in like 30 styles last time I seen.

    Leave a comment:


  • Omega Supreme
    replied
    Aikikai.

    Leave a comment:


  • DCS
    replied
    Googled who is teaching Aikido at Omega's gym... not 100% sure about his affiliation/lineage but he seems to be ASU.

    Leave a comment:


  • CapnMunchh
    replied
    Originally posted by DCS View Post
    I'd bet he's an ASU guy.
    Well if he's not going to ask, I am. What makes you say that?

    Leave a comment:


  • DCS
    replied
    Originally posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    I have seen him teach. I am sure he would concur with you on that too.
    I'd bet he's an ASU guy.

    Leave a comment:


  • Omega Supreme
    replied
    I have seen him teach. I am sure he would concur with you on that too.

    Leave a comment:


  • CapnMunchh
    replied
    Originally posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    No, you concur in full. The issue with weapons were not brought up therefore you don't know whether he agrees with you or not.
    Actually, you're right, I don't know if he agrees. I assumed that your post: "I mentioned this thread to our gym's Aikido instructor. He said that's not what the wristlocks are for and concurred with me. Just saying." meant that the instructor had been referring to weapons, since the issue of whether wristlocks were for use against weapons had come up several times in the thread. That's why I first asked if that's what he meant.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cuddles
    replied
    Originally posted by svt2026 View Post
    A white belt in any style without prior experience is a sucker for any technique applied by someone with experience. Even one that is not realistic.
    I beg to differ. George Dillman.

    Leave a comment:


  • Omega Supreme
    replied
    Originally posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    I concur in part, my point was that they're mostly for use against someone holding a weapon, otherwise wristlocks are easy to resist. I wouldn't try a wristlock against someone trying to punch me.

    As for using wristlocks while rolling with white belts, in my own defense I'll say that I was a white belt at the time too, and Lloyd never said I shouldn't do it.
    No, you concur in full. The issue with weapons were not brought up therefore you don't know whether he agrees with you or not.

    Leave a comment:


  • CapnMunchh
    replied
    Originally posted by Keslet View Post
    I'm not sure if folks have seen this one or not...it seems better then the typical 'x vs y' type videos...it's Russian with an Aikidoka and a kickboxer. There are definitely folks on here who have more experience than I do to judge this with, but what made me think of it
    Is that the aikido guy gets a couple of take downs early on, like at :09 and :15 or so in the fight...the second one is when he gets ahold of a wrist, something like what has been discussed here. If he had any ground game he might have made something out of those, but as it stands the rest of the fight doesn't go so well for him...

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aj8xH_aiCtg#
    Looks like Aikido guy did get in a wristlock at one point for a take down (kotegaishi). He also did a couple of Aikidoish back rolls. The rest of it mostly resembled a MMA match, particularly when they go to the ground.

    There are other Aikido v. XXX videos listed on the same page. The ones that look like real matches also end up looking more like MMA than anything else -- judo/BJJ +kickboxing/muy thai. Going back to the original topic of this thread, when you try non-compliant Aikido sparring and take out the Aikido conventions (no striking, no takedowns, etc.) it all ends up looking like MMA. Someone else on this thread, or maybe another recent thread, pointed out that when you put people from any different styles in a cage, and use MMA rules, it all ends up looking like MMA. You may see the occasional wristlock or flying TKD kick, but mostly its boxing and rolling. Makes sense, since that gives you the flexibility to use whatever works, and different people like to use different techniques.

    Leave a comment:


  • Keslet
    replied
    Originally posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    I concur in part, my point was that they're mostly for use against someone holding a weapon, otherwise wristlocks are easy to resist. I wouldn't try a wristlock against someone trying to punch me.

    As for using wristlocks while rolling with white belts, in my own defense I'll say that I was a white belt at the time too, and Lloyd never said I shouldn't do it.
    I'm not sure if folks have seen this one or not...it seems better then the typical 'x vs y' type videos...it's Russian with an Aikidoka and a kickboxer. There are definitely folks on here who have more experience than I do to judge this with, but what made me think of it
    Is that the aikido guy gets a couple of take downs early on, like at :09 and :15 or so in the fight...the second one is when he gets ahold of a wrist, something like what has been discussed here. If he had any ground game he might have made something out of those, but as it stands the rest of the fight doesn't go so well for him...

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aj8xH_aiCtg#

    Leave a comment:


  • CapnMunchh
    replied
    Originally posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    So in that case you concur with him.
    I concur in part, my point was that they're mostly for use against someone holding a weapon, otherwise wristlocks are easy to resist. I wouldn't try a wristlock against someone trying to punch me.

    As for using wristlocks while rolling with white belts, in my own defense I'll say that I was a white belt at the time too, and Lloyd never said I shouldn't do it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Omega Supreme
    replied
    I misspelled it? Weird. Okay.

    Leave a comment:


  • OwlMatt
    replied
    Originally posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    And why do you teach wristlocks?
    I wasn't disagreeing with you; I was just making a lame pun out of your misspelling.

    Leave a comment:

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