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Alive Training in Aikido - Suggestions?

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    #31
    Originally posted by Zeplin View Post
    Hi everyone!
    Long time lurker, first time poster, and all that.

    I want to ask a question/ask for suggestions.
    Whenever Aikido is brought up (though more for some styles than others, but still), it eventually comes down to primarily one point: Aikido does not have "alive" training.

    So my question is: how would you go about implementing this?
    Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not gonna go all "it's too dangerous! People WILL die!" on you here. But I do see some issues with alive training in Aikido, which is why I'm asking for suggestions on how to work around those.

    The first problem is you can't really wear thick gloves. Not only would it become increasingly difficult with gloves to use some techniques, but they would also become increasingly more difficult to apply. Since Aikido places a lot of weight on wrist locks, and joint manipulation centred around the wrist, how would you go about fixing this?
    Of course, you could do it without gloves, but I'm not sure everyone would be happy about being punched in the face without gloves on - and without punching in the face, the point of alive training goes out the window a bit.

    I also specifically mention the punching, as my Dojo does include Atemi in almost everything it does.

    The second problem is throws centred, again, around wrist locks. For me, I'm a graphic designer, the mobility of my wrists are pretty important to my job. I can deal with getting a bruised arm, or black eye, but I can't deal with a sprained wrist. The locks themselves could, of course, just be applied in the same way you do with BJJ - the guy taps out before shit gets serious. But what about the throws? You can't really go easy on a throw - if you do, the guy doesn't get thrown. You can't "build up the pressure", so to speak - it's throw or not throw. And I just personally see that as a bit of a problem, when a full powerful throw, powered by a wrist lock, could have some serious joint-problems.

    Again, I just want to make it clear that this is not a "it's too deadly" thread. Like any other MA, if there are techniques that could lead to such serious injury (like eye gouging or throat attacks in other MA's), you simply don't use them while sparring.
    But the two issues above leave me wondering if you could properly implement alive training in Aikido, without at the same time having issues with protective gear, and the possibility of serious joint injury.
    I also personally take as large a step as humanly possible, away from any sort of "Ki" Aikido.

    Last, no, I don't have tons of MA experience. I got 3rd kyu in Shotokan Karate when I was quite young, but haven't trained for a decade. I've done a tiny bit of Jujutsu, and a tiny bit of Judo. I recently, after much pondering, started Yoshinkan Aikido. I have no dreams of becoming a deadly killing machine, or even bothering with competing in anything.

    Just earnestly asking for advice from more experienced MA's.
    Hello Zeplin,

    Omega gave you the correct answer: first train Judo, SAMBO or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu before you start with Aikido.
    Yoshinkan Aikido is a very good style even without the alive sparring of Shodokan Aikido.

    Why Judo or derivative arts:
    According to one theory

    Before Ueshiba started to train with Takeda of the Daito-Ryu Aiki Ju Jutsu, he trained in Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu.
    Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu and Kito Ryu are the two Ryu that formed the core of Jigoro Kano's Judo...
    So Ueshiba had a good fighting base before starting Aikido and he also studied Judo in 1911.
    When Ueshiba started to teach first Aiki Ju Jutsu and later on Aikido, it was required that his students already knew some form of Ju Jutsu, Judo and/or Karate.
    Because of that he didn't need to have randori in his teachings, all of his early students had experience with randori through their previous training.

    He only taught the things (Aikido) that would be a superset to another Japanese Martial Art.
    Unfortunate, through the years the standard of having students with an already existing background in Martial Arts/Combat sports was dropped.

    Aikido techniques work, but they can only be used in a very minority of situations that happen in a fight and only if you have trained in a style that can be used as a delivery system for those techniques (Judo and derivatives come to mind).
    For the most situations that can happen in a fight, Judo techniques are more than enough to get the job done.

    There's a lot of information on this site and others to describe this point of view and in more details.
    Originally posted by Jiujitsu77
    You know you are crazy about BJJ/Martial arts when...
    Originally posted by Humanzee
    ...your books on Kama Sutra and BJJ are interchangeable.
    Originally posted by jk55299 on Keysi Fighting Method
    It looks like this is a great fighting method if someone replaces your shampoo with superglue.
    The real deadly:

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      #32
      By the way, for the record, you don't throw somebody with a wristlock; they throw themselves.

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by Omega Supreme View Post
        By the way, for the record, you don't throw somebody with a wristlock; they throw themselves.
        Yes, otherwise the joint breaks/tears. All that leverage on a small joint...won't hold your own bodyweight let alone bent the wrong way...
        Falling for Judo since 1980

        "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

        "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

        "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

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          #34
          Originally posted by Omega Supreme View Post
          By the way, for the record, you don't throw somebody with a wristlock; they throw themselves.
          QFT.
          Take it further - there are no throws in aikido. All "throws" are a result of ukemi.
          That's why Omega (and others) said go and do judo or any other honest "combat sport" - no bullshit involved.
          True randori can never happen in aikido - there's always one person assuming the nage role and the other the uke role. Hell, when aikidoka watch a judo/boxing match, they talk about how the competitors change their roles.
          Here's the catch - aikido is only deadly if you know what deadly is. You won't learn that just training aikido because most practicioners aren't honest with themselves about their skill level, what they are doing, or the reasons they are doing it.

          Originally posted by Omega Supreme View Post
          By the way, for the record, you don't throw somebody with a wristlock; they throw themselves.
          QFT.
          Take it further - there are no throws in aikido. All "throws" are a result of ukemi.
          That's why Omega (and others) said go and do judo or any other honest "combat sport" - no bullshit involved.
          True randori can never happen in aikido - there's always one person assuming the nage role and the other the uke role. Hell, when aikidoka watch a judo/boxing match, they talk about how the competitors change their roles.
          Here's the catch - aikido is only deadly if you know what deadly is. You won't learn that just training aikido because most practicioners aren't honest with themselves about their skill level, what they are doing, or the reasons they are doing it.

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by traversnz View Post
            QFT.
            Take it further - there are no throws in aikido. All "throws" are a result of ukemi.
            Nope.

            Sumi Otoshi is indeed a throw, and could be applied to a non-cooperative opponent.

            Sokumen Iriminage, Shomen-ate, and a few others as well.



            Still looks like bad Judo, though.

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by Mister View Post
              Nope.

              Sumi Otoshi is indeed a throw, and could be applied to a non-cooperative opponent.

              Sokumen Iriminage, Shomen-ate, and a few others as well.



              Still looks like bad Judo, though.
              Different Sumi Otoshi than Judo, though. The form of that throw (Sukui Nage) is common in many forms of koryu jujutsu.

              Aikido has koshi waza/nage as well.

              It's not all unuseable for sure. My primary judo instructor got a lot of insight into judo technique and tai sabaki from doing aikido and working on it with his brother, who was/is an aikido yudansha.
              Falling for Judo since 1980

              "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

              "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

              "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by Omega Supreme View Post
                I don't think you really understand what Aikido is. Go back and do Judo and BJJ.
                This.

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by OwlMatt View Post
                  Welcome, Zeplin. Why don't you go introduce yourself in Newbietown and read the stickies there?

                  There is a style of aikido that attempts to create an alive context for technique -- Shodokan aikido. They have a kind of knife randori that looks like this:

                  What I think becomes evident in Shodokan randori is that a lot of aikido's complex wrist locks are virtually impossible to apply live, at least against the kind of opponents you're likely to see today. These locks were orginally invented by swordsmen for use against other swordsmen; maybe it's easier to catch someone up in this kind of lock who is swinging a heavy sword and wearing heavy armor, but against a guy in normal clothes stabbing with a knife or throwing a punch, you're probably not going to get him into a nikkyo or a shihonage.
                  This appears to me the attacker is holding a knife and the other person is suppose to defend as an actual attack. Am I correct in this... If I am the defender is taking a lot of damage from an edged weapon and his whole strategy is working against him.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by svt2026 View Post
                    This appears to me the attacker is holding a knife and the other person is suppose to defend as an actual attack. Am I correct in this... If I am the defender is taking a lot of damage from an edged weapon and his whole strategy is working against him.
                    I have always thought this while watching Shodokan randori. I don't know the rules very well, so I don't know what counts as a hit with the knife.

                    Sent from my SPH-D710 using Bullshido - No BS MMA mobile app

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                      #40

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by svt2026 View Post
                        This appears to me the attacker is holding a knife and the other person is suppose to defend as an actual attack. Am I correct in this... If I am the defender is taking a lot of damage from an edged weapon and his whole strategy is working against him.
                        The Aikido defenses against a knife that you usually see in a typical dojo are not realistic in the first place, in that uke typically comes in from long range with a single stabbing or cutting motion. I don't think they're intended to be real knife defenses, but rather more like a training exercise in tai sabaki, timing, etc. There must be a similar reason for involving the knife in this type of randori. Even so, there seems to be no real regard for the knife in this video -- its almost as though holding the knife is a disadvantage for uke because he only has one free hand to grab nage with.

                        Back to the original question, I don't see how you can have live Aikido sparring, unless you're content with something that looks more like MMA with hakamas. As was said in OP, without striking there can be no Aikido live training, because Aikido techniques are often "set up" by the threat of a strike, which causes uke to move a particular way.

                        In my old Aikido dojo, the more experienced people trained with unplanned full power or close to full power attacks, but there was still the expectation that Aikido form would be respected, i.e., attacks from two steps away, no one was going to be hit hard in the face, no one was going to shoot for your legs, etc. This is about the best you can do for Aikido live training.

                        Bottom line -- here's an exact quote from Mitsugi Saotome Sensei, the head of Aikido Schools of Ueshiba (ASU), during a seminar: "Aikido not for fighting. You want to fight? Take karate or judo."

                        Comment


                          #42
                          sigpic

                          When life gives you lemons... BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!

                          "what's the best thing about aikido then?"
                          "To be defeated by your enemies, to be driven by them from the field of battle, and to hear the lamentations of your women." ermghoti

                          Comment


                            #43
                            So basically, you're saying that aikido is this:

                            and people are complaining that that engine will never work, because the parts aren't even connected properly?

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Pretty much yes, and that once they connect it, it still needs to go into a functional vehicle, or it's pointless.
                              sigpic

                              When life gives you lemons... BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!

                              "what's the best thing about aikido then?"
                              "To be defeated by your enemies, to be driven by them from the field of battle, and to hear the lamentations of your women." ermghoti

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Originally posted by Permalost View Post
                                So basically, you're saying that aikido is this:

                                and people are complaining that that engine will never work, because the parts aren't even connected properly?
                                Aikido is like that picture of an engine drawn by an engineer. The engine might work, but only after a mechanic gets his hands dirty putting it together, tuning it up, and making it run. The end result probably wont look exactly like the picture.

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