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    Ground equals pure death

    From learning the hard way.
    Don't ever take a fight to the ground or willingly allow yourself to be put onto the ground.
    For me it is the golden rule of streetfighting.
    You don't know how many buddies this guy has around the corner just waiting for you to hit the concrete.
    In toxteth in Liverpool it is practically a death sentence to take a fight to the ground, because guaranteed there will be 15 - 20 guys who will jump in and stomp the crap out of you, whether they are anything to do with the fight or not.
    Keep to your feet in case you need to take to your heels.
    Of course if you get taken down hard you need good ground game, but only to get them off of you so you can get back up.

    #2
    This post was moved from the following link because of the derail it would have caused in a Newbietown thread: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=121027
    Shut the hell up and train.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by peteofred View Post
      From learning the hard way.
      Don't ever take a fight to the ground or willingly allow yourself to be put onto the ground.
      For me it is the golden rule of streetfighting.
      You don't know how many buddies this guy has around the corner just waiting for you to hit the concrete.
      In toxteth in Liverpool it is practically a death sentence to take a fight to the ground, because guaranteed there will be 15 - 20 guys who will jump in and stomp the crap out of you, whether they are anything to do with the fight or not.
      Keep to your feet in case you need to take to your heels.
      Of course if you get taken down hard you need good ground game, but only to get them off of you so you can get back up.
      Streetfighting... you've done some of that then ?

      Given it's your "golden rule" I'm gaining the impression from that, that this is something you're actively involved in.

      Give me an example, if you'd be kind enough to indulge me when...

      The last occasion you were required to street fight, and the circumstances of that situation where you'd found yourself unable to avoid it.

      I ask because having spent a number of years employed within a role which required conflict resolution dealing with people whom, some of which, had little to lose from inflicting serious bodily harm, if not death on others, EVERY encounter ultimately ended up on the floor no matter how many people were involved.

      There are three types of control mechanism which resolves human conflict.

      1. AVOIDANCE
      2. PHYSICAL RESTRAINT
      3. INCAPACITY

      - Avoidance is by far the best option but isn't always 100% in your control

      - Physical Restraint requires you (or someone else) to retain a hold of some description but will often require that person to be prone for the restraint to be fully effective for any period of time.

      - Incapacity of your opponent by KO

      You're able to hit/kick or choke-out your opponent to the point where they have nothing left.

      Now, unless we're training regularly in a system which is proven to fully function against opponents who are actively resisting what we wish to do to them, options 2 & 3 are actually incredibly difficult to achieve with any degree of consistency. Being able to choke-out means you're likely not being on your feet when you do it - so we're on the ground, high kicking is a risky option in many respects and you're not always in an environment where you can effectively do it. Finally, hitting a moving target whilst under stress and doing so effectively and hard enough within the first few seconds of conflict is likewise very difficult to achieve - more to the point you have no idea until you actually hit the individual for the first time, how they're going to cope/compensate your attempts at a KO strike.

      What I've driving at here is there's no single solution at dealing with conflict.

      In some respects I'm agreeing with the sentiments of your original post however, learning how to effectively deal with being taken to the ground, obtaining positional advantage, then being able to fight or flight from there is far better than just learning a stand up game... Because, every cuntfuck who looks for trouble of this sort will want to put you in, what they will inherently see as a position of disadvantage, by taking that shit to the floor. They may do this intentionally or subconsciously but in a game with no rules the floor provides the ideal place to stop someone from easy escape.

      Comment


        #4
        AIDs needles, lava, crocodiles in the sewers- with lasers on their heads, I totally see where the OP is coming from.

        Personally, after watching Superman, I decided to focus my training on flying so that I never have to even touch the ground ever ever ever in that Taylor Swift never ever way. So take that you BJJ n00bs!

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by peteofred View Post
          From learning the hard way.
          You don't know how many buddies this guy has around the corner just waiting for you to hit the concrete.
          Click image for larger version

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          Seriously though I have one simple rule about street fighting. If I'm not grappling, I'm running and I won't initiate grappling (maybe that counts as two?). Basically unless someone has a hold of me that I can't get off I will run away.

          Following this rule I have never been in a street fight.

          Comment


            #6
            Probably best just to avoid Toxteth.

            That's my free self defence tip.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by peteofred View Post
              because guaranteed there will be 15 - 20 guys who will jump in and stomp the crap out of you, whether they are anything to do with the fight or not.
              You'll have to tell us how you manage to deal with 15-20 people joining in while you're still on your feet.

              Jeebus, do we have to so this tired old argument yet again? The person most able to stay on his feet is the one most experienced with working with partners trying to take him to the ground ... AKA grapplers.

              Comment


                #8
                Maybe you need more friends? It always seems people are worried about the other guy having friends. My friends usually spend 3-4 days a week punching, choking, and slamming people. You should probably be worried about my friends.

                Comment


                  #9
                  I thought we went over this? Street fighting is bad because t3h str33t always wins!!
                  I feel like you eye-bawlin' me, dawg!

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by peteofred View Post
                    Don't ever take a fight to the ground or willingly allow yourself to be put onto the ground.
                    Okay, now how do you avoid being taken there unwillingly if your opponent(s) are practised and experienced in takedowns and you're not practised and experienced in defending takedown attempts?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Rock Ape View Post
                      Streetfighting... you've done some of that then ?

                      Given it's your "golden rule" I'm gaining the impression from that, that this is something you're actively involved in.

                      Give me an example, if you'd be kind enough to indulge me when...

                      The last occasion you were required to street fight, and the circumstances of that situation where you'd found yourself unable to avoid it.

                      I ask because having spent a number of years employed within a role which required conflict resolution dealing with people whom, some of which, had little to lose from inflicting serious bodily harm, if not death on others, EVERY encounter ultimately ended up on the floor no matter how many people were involved.

                      There are three types of control mechanism which resolves human conflict.

                      1. AVOIDANCE
                      2. PHYSICAL RESTRAINT
                      3. INCAPACITY

                      - Avoidance is by far the best option but isn't always 100% in your control

                      - Physical Restraint requires you (or someone else) to retain a hold of some description but will often require that person to be prone for the restraint to be fully effective for any period of time.

                      - Incapacity of your opponent by KO

                      You're able to hit/kick or choke-out your opponent to the point where they have nothing left.

                      Now, unless we're training regularly in a system which is proven to fully function against opponents who are actively resisting what we wish to do to them, options 2 & 3 are actually incredibly difficult to achieve with any degree of consistency. Being able to choke-out means you're likely not being on your feet when you do it - so we're on the ground, high kicking is a risky option in many respects and you're not always in an environment where you can effectively do it. Finally, hitting a moving target whilst under stress and doing so effectively and hard enough within the first few seconds of conflict is likewise very difficult to achieve - more to the point you have no idea until you actually hit the individual for the first time, how they're going to cope/compensate your attempts at a KO strike.

                      What I've driving at here is there's no single solution at dealing with conflict.

                      In some respects I'm agreeing with the sentiments of your original post however, learning how to effectively deal with being taken to the ground, obtaining positional advantage, then being able to fight or flight from there is far better than just learning a stand up game... Because, every cuntfuck who looks for trouble of this sort will want to put you in, what they will inherently see as a position of disadvantage, by taking that shit to the floor. They may do this intentionally or subconsciously but in a game with no rules the floor provides the ideal place to stop someone from easy escape.
                      Spending six of my teenage years growing up in one of the roughest parts of Liverpool, yeah I had to fight daily. Being a soft southern boy as I was at the time I was a constant target for almost anyone native to Liverpool who was in that thug culture.
                      I've had more street fights than I care to think about, and unless you want to get jumped by more people you can count the golden rule back then was don't ever willingly take anything to the ground.
                      As I said before, if you get taken down you need good ground game. I got some of that from Silat, the rest I improvise. (Bare in mind it was very, very rare I would be up against anyone with any formal combat training)
                      Subsequent of these confrontations I found that if someone lays hands on you, tries to punch you (mainly sucker) and or knife you the quickest most direct defence for this is best. Then run your backside off as a gaggle of said attackers mates would be baring down on you.
                      If you try any close quarters control stuff (i.e. locks, take downs, submission work) in an inner city street fight you are going to have someone come up behind you and put a blade in you. Chances are you wouldn't of even known they were there.
                      I've lost a couple of friends to street fights, mainly because they tried to fight instead of just getting their attacker away from them and running away.
                      You said you were in a profession that involved you street fighting. Though this means your responses were bound by the law.
                      When your a 16 year old and you have 10 - 15 people wanting to stomp your head in, you do what you must.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by peteofred View Post
                        You said you were in a profession that involved you street fighting.
                        Actually I didn't.

                        I stated:
                        ...having spent a number of years employed within a role which required conflict resolution dealing with people whom, some of which, had little to lose from inflicting serious bodily harm, if not death on others
                        I was referring to my time as a discipline officer within CAT A Prison establishments.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          If you end up on the ground in Liverpool, someone will jack you up and steal your heelies.
                          sigpic

                          When life gives you lemons... BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!

                          "what's the best thing about aikido then?"
                          "To be defeated by your enemies, to be driven by them from the field of battle, and to hear the lamentations of your women." ermghoti

                          Comment


                            #14
                            So you're saying that living in Liverpool is a bit like that game kids play where you have to avoid touching the ground - only instead of being "out" when you put your foot on the tarmac, you get chibbed 15 times?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Discussing whether or not to go to the ground in a fight against 20 people is equivalent to discussing how to rearrange deck chairs on the Titanic.

                              Comment

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