'Let's Talk About Fallon Fox.

[King Sleepless]

No.

He should not be allowed to fight women. It's not about being transphobic. It's not about his rights to be considered a woman. When it comes down to it, he has the male strength and mass advantage. It's bullshit.

Also he lied tons and tons to a bunch of different people/orgs. That in of itself is some bullshit.

[Mr. Machette]

I'm with Sirc on this one.

It's willful deception at best and outright sandbagging at worst.

Either way, it's not very sporting...

[W. Rabbit]

http://www.latimes.com/sports/sports...,4021327.story

[Tranquil Suit]

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=120448

[King Sleepless]

It's a step in the right direction though for my dream to see mutant freaks fight each other though.

[karma2343]

*she

Whether or not we think that she should be fighting in WMMA, lets respect her gender identity.

[animlmthr]

Since it first came up, I have read a lot of back and forth on this particular case. A major concern is whether or not many years (6+) of hormone replacement therapy does (or does not) effect her bone structure and muscle mass, etc. Let me dig up the articles and re-post them here.

The main consensus I see from the 'experts' or medical community is that she is female (or female enough?) to fight 'natural' females (note that one of these docs is a male to female transgender herself...yes, I will provide the article). They are using the Olympic commission precedent as a platform for this decision and I believe (I will find the original doc) that the commission has already approved her license but I could be mistaken.

I am all for transgender rights and acceptance but me personally, I would not fight her in a MMA match and I would be fairly butthurt if I came upon her in a grappling tournament (even though I have grappled plenty of 'man-women' in comp before).

Let me find the docs I've been referring too. Most have been supplied by Womens MMA Discussion on FB.

Lastly, I don't think Mitrione comments were transphobic. But thats my opinion.

[Goju - Joe]

What if he/she fights and looses to a woman then is it ok?

My take is if the opponent knows and is OK with it hen it's ok....

Maybe

[animlmthr]

full disclosure I think is a large factor in this.

and its not he/she, its fucking she

[Vieux Normand]

What if he/she fights and looses to a woman then is it ok?

Long-term career thinking, then: throw her/his/hes/hir first fight.

[animlmthr]

Okay...this took awhile and hopefully you knuckle heads will find these links adequate enough to start the discussion. FYI, most of this went down around March, 2013 if you start looking yourself for relevant articles/resources.

As such, I had a difficult time finding the articles I originally referred to in my last post. I read a lot of this bullshit on Women's MMA Discussion's FB page but FB is terrible to find archived links. However, I did find a few of the ones I referred too, as well as, some other interesting/supplemental commentaries.

They follow as:

some of the original articles describing the Fallon conundrum (in case you're totally in the dark about all this):
1. http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...ation/1966201/

2. http://www.glaad.org/blog/mma-fighte...ut-transgender

3. http://www.outsports.com/2013/3/5/40...ro-mma-fighter

4. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mma...?sct=mma_wr_a3

professional/doctor opinions on the topic:
1. A 2005 scientific paper on the subject: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...v039p00695.pdf and the blog that originally referenced it: http://drannmaria.blogspot.com/2013/...-in-mixed.html

2. Dr. Benjamin: http://www.mmajunkie.com/news/2013/0...r-mma-fighters or http://www.h4-entertainment.com/2013...against-women/

[quote]When asked the question on MMA Junkie Dr Johnny Benjamin states that hormonal therapy and gender reassignment surgery can make someone more feminine but there is little evidence to suggest that it can change the physical performance to that of a non-transgender woman. Dr Benjamin also says that while many medical professionals have had well-voiced opinions regarding muscle mass and bone density but they have no specific, scientific information that answers the athletic/physical performance capacity question.[quote]

3. a counter article to the above (note it's by GLAAD): http://www.glaad.org/blog/dr-johnny-...ter-fallon-fox

4. and the controversial opinion of Dr. Helen Carroll: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mma...n-fox-profile/

[quote] Helen J. Carroll, the Director of the National Center for Lesbian Rights' Sports Project and an advocate for transgender athletes, said the "competitive equity" among transwomen and the rest of the field is always a glaring, and often misunderstood, topic.

"[The common thinking is] it's impossible for a transgender woman, who was born a man, to play women's sports and [have] it be fair," said Carroll, a former athlete, national championship basketball coach, and collegiate athletic director with over 40 years of sports-related experience. "The short answer is the transgender woman is a woman, and when she transitions, she takes testosterone-blocking hormones, so when she does end up competing, she has less testosterone in her system than her competitors do."

Because of this, Carroll said a transgender female athlete has to work harder to keep muscle mass and strength than a female-born woman athlete. That lack of testosterone would also affect speed and weight retention, added Carroll.

"You remember that she's carrying a lot of estrogen at this point, which will make it difficult to cut weight," said Carroll.

In Fallon's case, she was required to take copious amounts of estrogen and testosterone blockers in preparation for transition surgery in 2006. [quote]


Fallon's licensing issues (I'm still confused myself whether she is or is not allowed to fight in female divisions...):
1. http://espn.go.com/mma/story/_/id/90...ew-mma-license

2. and a biased piece by: http://www.fightopinion.com/2013/03/...-transgenders/

3. and lastly, Loretta's April 13th tweet: https://twitter.com/lorettahuntmma/s...13749004730368

For shits and giggles, a bunch of opinions from around the community, including past, and potential future, opponents of Fox:
1.

2. http://espn.go.com/mma/story/_/id/90...gender-athlete
4. http://www.bluegrassmma.com/2013/03/.../#.UWi22cqbVyI
5. http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/3/14...-freemason-trt

(there's a ton others, including Rogans stance and even Hulk Hogan {like anyone cares what Hogan thinks, lol}) Google and TMZ are your friends in these cases.

Lastly, Fox responds to Mitrione: http://hereisyourwinner.com/2013/04/...matt-mitrione/

[quote]Matt Mitrione went well beyond disagreeing with the medical experts who say I should be able to compete as a woman, and personally attacked me as a fighter, as a woman, and as a human being.

His comments do not reflect the spirit of our sport, where most competitors uphold values like respect and dignity.[quote]

A lot of these links are derived from Womans MMA Discussion on FB: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Women...46250385456144

you have to scroll way down to Late Feb/March to start seeing the many articles they posted. I became inpatient and started to Google the ones I knew about, soooo....


And just in case you want to see Fallon's last fight which ended with a KO from a knee:

EDIT: Here's that damn article/link I finally found regarding one medical doc's opinion on the matter, where she herself is a male to female transgender (Dr. Marci Bowers) and another SR physician, Dr. Sherman Leis. Both agree Fallon has no advantage over non-operative females: http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/3/8/...-on-fallon-fox

[Gezere]

full disclosure I think is a large factor in this.

and its not he/she, its fucking she

No its HE will always be HE. Unless his DNA has been rewritten then it will remain a male. So unless you have the science that he has transformed into an actual woman HE is perfectly fine.

[Hedgehogey]

The goalposts keep getting moved. First it was muscle, until photos surfaced of her previous opponents having the advantage there. Then it was bone density, until someone remembered that Wolff's Law is a thing. Now it's bone structure.

I guess now that means we need to establish a minimum pelvic girdle size for all female fighters. From now on, if you're gonna step into the octagon, you'd better be bringing cartoonishly large Hartmann Hips with you.

[Gezere]

I gave this a thumbs up but on my phone it beg repped it Thanks for providing the links

[PDA]

What if he/she fights and looses to a woman then is it ok?

My take is if the opponent knows and is OK with it hen it's ok....

Maybe

Yeah sure , in fact why do we even have weight classes? If a 155lb guy is ok fighting a 265lb guy just let them do it right?