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    I want to defend Shaolin-Do from the court papers.

    When I read some of these responses it kinda burns me... The reason is there are many legends blow out of proportion no mater what system you are talking about. No one wants to hear legends about a man who sat and eat all day. During one of the tai chi forms there is a move called "needle at the sea bottom". It's about how the money king had a staff and would strink it to the size of a needle to carry in his ear. He drops it in the sea and dives down to pick it up...any fact there? However it's a legend.

    Though many of the stories maybe fabricated that doesn't change the fact of a linage nor does the fact that there is no other sources. The reason that is, is because there are people who master there forms and die all the time NEVER to be heard of or spoken of again. Of course Shaolin-Do is the only resource for what's left, besides for his students honoring him, no one else cared who Grandmaster Su was. All history is someone else's words. As to how much is true? well it's all interpretation and things change in the telling.

    however as cougar spirit said it's real an effective as a martial art, so who cares where it came from. All the records are words of mouth.

    As to the pictures of Ie, well not everyone wants there picture taken and if his students didn't have pictures to take care of then how is anyone supposed to have them?

    As to the 900 forms the curriculum doesn't cover everything most things are taught in seminars. Also Grandmaster Sin's native tongue is not English. There is a move taught in Pakua that gets translated into "a flock of geese flew up" also as "suddenly a flock of ducks flew out" and "a bird shoots into the sky" obviously they are all different.

    There is a set of forms you learn in the first few ranks called "short kata" there is 30, each one is a set of maybe 2-5 movements, that is 30 of the 900. So it's VERY practical to have over 900 forms. Remember What Grandmaster has is what's left of the Fukien temple, so it's an accumulation of all the different styles, animal systems, weapons etc.

    #2
    I want to defend Shaolin-Do from the court papers.

    There has been many "impossible" feats that have been done. Has the story been exaggerated? perhaps, but who wants to hear stories about how he slept like a normal man? You have to realize that most of the things an effective martial arts master can do are "impossible" by normal human limitations.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by BlazeLeeDragon View Post
      There has been many "impossible" feats that have been done. Has the story been exaggerated? perhaps, but who wants to hear stories about how he slept like a normal man? You have to realize that most of the things an effective martial arts master can do are "impossible" by normal human limitations.
      This post contributes absolutely nothing to the discussion. Nothing.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by CrackFox View Post
        This post contributes absolutely nothing to the discussion. Nothing.

        Interesting, I was on topic and you simple found the time to complain. Complaining that they believe something is impossible doesn't hold up with me. Saying a story is BS because the human body needs 15 seconds of rest every 72 hours. Everyone is different, everyone has different ways of pushing themselves. I've had friends stay up for 5 days straight. So once again my comment is on topic what was the point of wasting our time with yours?

        Comment


          #5
          I want to defend Shaolin-Do from the court papers.

          I can't believe how people are going on about this and bashing Shaolin-Do...

          First I'd like to know how you where able to get the stuff from court and secondly are you reading it?

          Your talking about a man who's first language is not English and anyone who speaks a foreign language knows there is no word for word translation. For a simple example 你好 Nǐ hǎo which is used as a creating, but litterially translates to "you good"

          your also talking about a different culture. As to his "supposed lies" in that article which I can't most a link to since I'm a noob. The bushido org / sin the one.

          He said he made up the short kata not the whole system...and I hate to break it to you but EVERYTHING is made up. All martial arts started with a few men who made up how they thought they should move, from trial and error or watching others or animals.

          Also when you learn a style you make it your own it alters as time goes on.

          the reference to the 108 forms, and that these 30 are based on that but he doesn't know the 108. Well guess what the 30 forms are BASED on ancient techniques. The sequence he made up.

          Or flying tiger comes out of the cave... that he didn't tell people that it wasn't a form from the Huanan temple. again the tiger movements are actually movements from Shaolin but his own sequence.

          As far as the baby melting, it's a legend and he probably used the word melting in place of burning. He they kept getting the sand hotter, and you touch someone who's skin is not able to handle those temperatures right after ward of course it's going to be hot. As far as the details about that who cares it's a story. Most of the movements are based off taoist imortals or gods etc.

          As to the post about him looking at his notes for the 900 forms. You have to remember that those are the forms passed to him. So most are probably in note form and manuels. Of course he'll refer to notes. Let me see any of you study 100 forms and not need to refer to notes.

          keep in mind too that the 30 short kata are 30 of the 900.

          Also most of the Chinese martial arts can be traced back to the Shaolin Temples, the monks traveled and spread Chan Buddhism, many went to the temple to train and left. It got mixed around alot.

          I'd be surprised to hear of any system that's not at least a 100 years old that doesn't have stories and legends behind it. Many which may have been fabricated or miss told after being passed by word of mouth.

          Ultimately if you like a style regardless of origin you like it.

          Most of these so called origins of any style are lost people dont' care, They complained GM didn't tell them he made up this or that. How many American's give a crap what the names of the movements are, how to say them in Chinese, who invented them when etc. Many go just for fitness or defense. Not everyone wants to be a scholar so I don't blame him for not telling every single detail.

          Many people have no clue where there lineage comes from and most make up what they can. The only reason Grandmaster is getting guff is because of the stupid court stuff he had to go through.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by BlazeLeeDragon View Post
            I can't believe how people are going on about this and bashing Shaolin-Do.
            Nobody is going on about anything; have you read the entire thread?
            The last post on the topic was in August; are there any new developments?
            I thought I spelled it wrong, but as I said I'm a mechanic not an English professor.

            Comment


              #7
              I know it's an old thread I just mean I can't believe how many posts there are. I'm wanting to participate and add my words to the discussion.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by BlazeLeeDragon View Post
                I know it's an old thread I just mean I can't believe how many posts there are. I'm wanting to participate and add my words to the discussion.
                Awesome, welcome to Bullshido. Are there any new developments or anything with a factual basis that can be added at this time?
                I thought I spelled it wrong, but as I said I'm a mechanic not an English professor.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Thank you for the welcome. No other then the facts already present where I feel miss represented. IE he didn't say he created everything just those 30 short kata. I also think origin facts are hard to come by. Since everything was pretty much burned anyway. I dont' think we are going to find any definitive answers here.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=115630

                    Welcome to bullshido. Now you can have a safe discussion.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Welcome to Bullshido.

                      Originally posted by BlazeLeeDragon View Post
                      First I'd like to know how you where able to get the stuff from court and secondly are you reading it?
                      This is America and court records are usually public unless sealed for some reason.

                      Originally posted by BlazeLeeDragon View Post
                      Your talking about a man who's first language is not English
                      ..
                      your also
                      Using improper pronunciation to lecture others is a great way to lose people's interest.

                      Originally posted by BlazeLeeDragon View Post
                      I hate to break it to you but EVERYTHING is made up.
                      Yes we know Shaolin-Do is made up. Do you have new information or did you come to lecture a martial arts community?

                      Originally posted by BlazeLeeDragon View Post
                      All martial arts started with a few men who made up how they thought they should move, from trial and error or watching others or animals.

                      Also when you learn a style you make it your own it alters as time goes on.
                      This is lecturing.

                      Originally posted by BlazeLeeDragon View Post
                      the reference to the 108 forms, and that these 30 are based on that but he doesn't know the 108. Well guess what the 30 forms are BASED on ancient techniques. The sequence he made up.
                      This is the issue, as I understand it, with Shaolin-Do. Making lots of stuff up?

                      Originally posted by BlazeLeeDragon View Post
                      As to the post about him looking at his notes for the 900 forms. You have to remember that those are the forms passed to him. So most are probably in note form and manuels. Of course he'll refer to notes. Let me see any of you study 100 forms and not need to refer to notes.

                      keep in mind too that the 30 short kata are 30 of the 900.
                      900 forms, 100 forms...and then you went and used the k-word. This is why I'm having a hard time taking your post seriously. But since this is in Newbietown now, I will actually make an effort.

                      Originally posted by BlazeLeeDragon View Post
                      Also most of the Chinese martial arts can be traced back to the Shaolin Temples, the monks traveled and spread Chan Buddhism, many went to the temple to train and left. It got mixed around alot.
                      Very few Chinese martial arts can be traced back to Shaolin, unless by traced you mean "my Sifu says".

                      Originally posted by BlazeLeeDragon View Post
                      I'd be surprised to hear of any system that's not at least a 100 years old that doesn't have stories and legends behind it. Many which may have been fabricated or miss told after being passed by word of mouth.
                      Shaolin-Do is not 100 years old, though.

                      Originally posted by BlazeLeeDragon View Post
                      How many American's give a crap what the names of the movements are, how to say them in Chinese, who invented them when etc.
                      You might be surprised. I can think of quite a few I know personally.

                      Originally posted by BlazeLeeDragon View Post
                      Many people have no clue where there lineage comes from and most make up what they can.
                      See there's the trick....making stuff up because you have no clue is called bullshit. In the MA world, it's known as Bullshido.

                      Originally posted by BlazeLeeDragon View Post
                      The only reason Grandmaster is getting guff is because of the stupid court stuff he had to go through.
                      Do you realize a licensed attorney and folks with significant background on Shaolin-Do helped put that thread together?
                      Last edited by W. Rabbit; 10/27/2012 9:25pm, . Reason: Tone changes

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by BlazeLeeDragon View Post
                        I know it's an old thread I just mean I can't believe how many posts there are.
                        Really? You must be new to online forums.
                        Bullshido:
                        http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=12669
                        http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=21682
                        http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27115
                        http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=88371

                        Kungfu forum online:
                        http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=32782

                        Rum Soaked Fist:
                        http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.p...3fee3238c78dad

                        Martial Arts Planet:
                        http://www.martialartsplanet.com/for...ad.php?t=20357

                        Martial Talk:
                        http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sho...419-Shaolin-Do
                        http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sho...-Do-Curriculum

                        Welcome to the internet..

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I know there are a lot out there. That's why I'm posting. I want to share my 2 cents. I disagree with a lot of the negative feed back.

                          The posts are calling the entire Shaolin-Do bullshit based on a few lines from that court case. I mean, hell if you don't like the system fine, but the arguments are on lineage. Which in most cases can't be accurately trace in any system. We are talking our instructor's words for it.

                          I have no idea how accurate the Shaolin-Do history is. However I trust my instructors so that's good enough for me. Aside from the one or two points arguing about the contradictions a lot of it makes sense.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by BlazeLeeDragon View Post
                            I know there are a lot out there. That's why I'm posting. I want to share my 2 cents. I disagree with a lot of the negative feed back.

                            The posts are calling the entire Shaolin-Do bullshit based on a few lines from that court case. I mean, hell if you don't like the system fine, but the arguments are on lineage. Which in most cases can't be accurately trace in any system. We are talking our instructor's words for it.

                            I have no idea how accurate the Shaolin-Do history is. However I trust my instructors so that's good enough for me. Aside from the one or two points arguing about the contradictions a lot of it makes sense.
                            You need to look at those dates. They were calling Bullshido LONG before "a few lines from that court case.

                            but the arguments are on lineage.
                            If that is all you got from these threads, your reading is very poor.

                            Which in most cases can't be accurately trace in any system.
                            Nope.

                            We are talking our instructor's words for it.
                            No, that's you.


                            "

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Welcome to Bullshido.
                              Thank you :) I looking forward to some interesting back and fourth.

                              Using improper pronunciation to lecture others is a great way to lose people's interest.

                              eh, if people read it they read it. If not no worries I'm just voiceing my opinion.

                              Yes we know Shaolin-Do is made up. Do you have new information or did you come to lecture a martial arts community?

                              No, I'm saying re-look at what is already there. Shaolin-Do maybe new but the material and techinques are not.


                              This is the issue, as I understand it, with Shaolin-Do. Making lots of stuff up?

                              Well that's the problem I'm having here. Most of it is not brand new but is older and many of the forms we are told of the original creator when known. Many of the forms taught are the same or similar asides form an occasional move.


                              900 forms, 100 forms...and then you went and used the
                              k-word. This is why I'm having a hard time taking your post seriously. But since this is in Newbietown now, I will actually make an effort.
                              By K word I assume you mean Kata? I assume your complaint is it's a Japanese word in a proclaimed Chinese system... how many people have ever heard of
                              套路Let alone be able to pronounce it? Besides acording to Shook, John. Managing to Learn. Lean Enterprise Institute, 2008, p. 32 "More recently, Kata has come to be used in English in a more general or figurative sense, referring to any basic form, routine, or pattern of behavior that is practiced to various levels of mastery."


                              Very few Chinese martial arts can be traced back to Shaolin, unless by traced you mean "
                              my Sifu says".
                              What other type of tracing you looking for? Do you believe that no one that studied at
                              since it was constructed in 477 CE, taught anyone outside the temple?

                              Shaolin-Do is not 100 years old, though.

                              Agreed but the material, techniques and many of the forms are much, much older. Buddha Fist for example we are told is over 1500 years old.


                              You might be surprised. I can think of quite a few I know personally.

                              Oh I agree there are many exceptions to this rule. However if you travel to an average school, most will have no clue and many more will not care. In fact I've noticed that most of the students that start never obtain a black belt.


                              See there's the trick....making stuff up because you have no clue is called bullshit. In the MA world, it's known as Bullshido.

                              Nice :)

                              Do you realize a licensed attorney and folks with significant background on Shaolin-Do helped put that thread together?
                              Doesn't change the fact that GM didn't say it's all made up, it say specifically the 29 forms, at one point 30. Referring to the short Kata. It also makes reference to the tiger form, and then things unrelated to the material, that have to do with GM's personal history like the knife and the rumor he heard about his master and the baby.

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